Creating a Sense of Belonging and Navigating Body Image Issues with Kids
Welcome to the Satiated Podcast where we explore physical and emotional hunger, satiation, and healing your relationship with your food and body. I'm your host, Stephanie Mara Fox, your Somatic Nutritional Counselor.
In this month long body image healing focus, I would be remiss if I didn't address our younger generations. I have said in many sessions that I'm grateful I wasn't going through middle school and high school when iphones existed. It is exponentially harder to grow up in this culture where every embarrassing moment can be captured by a phone to be shared with millions of people. Parents face a huge challenge now in navigating body image concerns with their kids as they face societal pressures from every angle to look a certain way.
Body image issues can start early on in life. Children as young as 3 to 5 years old can start to internalize societal ideals about body shape and size. Exposure to media plays a significant role in shaping children's body image. Cartoons, children's movies, and advertisements often portray body types in good or bad ways that can influence children's perceptions of what is considered "normal" or "desirable." Children are also listening to the dialogues happening around them and are impacted by comments about appearance, dieting behaviors, gender norms, and attitudes toward food and exercise that they observe from their family and social circles which affect their perception of their own bodies. Parents may feel overwhelmed as to where to start or what to say when it comes to talking about body image with their kids.
This is exactly what I chat about with Diana Rice today. Diana is a registered dietitian, a certified intuitive eating counselor, and a certified positive discipline parenting coach. She is the voice behind the online platform Anti-Diet Kids and specializes in helping parents break the generational cycle of dieting and body shame through her coaching practice Tiny Seed Family Nutrition.
We discuss navigating body image with kids, building resilience and confidence with your children, the importance of parents creating a healthy relationship with their own food and body, fostering a sense of belonging in kids, and challenging societal messages. If you're not a parent, you might reflect on how you would meet your inner child in some of the approaches we discuss today to reparent yourself on the ways you perhaps wished you were met, seen, and held around your body image concerns growing up. Now, welcome Diana!
I am thrilled to connect with you today and have you here. I felt like in this month long focus on body image that I would be remiss if I didn't bring someone on to talk about our kids, like our younger generations and how our body image as adults even gets cultivated to begin with. And so I'm really excited to have you here and dive more into this conversation because I know a bunch of our listeners are parents, and they're trying to also navigate this body image worlds with their kids as well.
Diana Rice 03:35
Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me.
Stephanie Mara 03:38
Yeah, well, I'm curious for you how you got into this work in supporting body image for younger generations.
Diana Rice 03:47
It's kind of an unusual story, which is actually kind of sad, which is that I have to preface this by saying I was very thin growing up. So growing up, I did not have any pressure on me to change my body or eat a certain way. So I honestly didn't really think all that much about body image related stuff, or you know, healthy food versus unhealthy food. As I became a young adult, I just ate what felt good. This is a concept I use with my clients very often, which is Ellyn Satters' eating competence is that you just know how to nourish your body well, which is sadly not the norm, right. I didn't even pursue becoming a dietitian in my first stab at college. I got into the working world. I was working in media that probably you know, kind of slanted me towards, you know, the way that women were portrayed and the pressures that we're under and a little bit later in my career decided I wanted to focus more on food and health and I went back to school to become a dietitian and that pretty much all went swimmingly. And then as a newly minted RD, I remember noticing my peers, other dietitians, talking basically about like this is like, you know, early to mid 2010 so I think that intuitive eating as a concept was just starting to gain momentum. And so my peers would be talking about, like, they post a picture of a hamburger on Instagram and say, I used to never eat this, but you know, now I've discovered intuitive eating, and, you know, I feel confident eating it. And I was so naive. I was like, what? People don't eat burgers. And, you know, I lived in New York City at the time. And so, you know, there was a lot of pizza and burgers. And you know, I certainly wasn't making a ton of money. I wasn't like shopping at Whole Foods or anything. And so as I just sort of moved along in the nutrition space, I realized how rare it was that I had grown up with a healthy relationship with food and my body. And again, I can't stress enough that like, if I hadn't been thin, I'm sure I would have received a lot more pressure, even if it didn't come directly from my parents, like just societally, right? I had always been interested in pediatric and family nutrition, that was the main reason that I decided to become a dietitian in the first place. I didn't have kids at the time, but I do now, just sort of as I moved along in that space, I started out doing mom and baby nutrition, I was a new mom myself. And of course, there is all that pressure postpartum about getting your body back. And you know, there's a lot there's actually quite a lot of diet culture in the pressure to breastfeed and starting solids. And so it was mostly focusing on just sort of like run of the mill resources about like, you know, starting solids and breastfeed nutrition. And I found myself, you know, I was already gravitating towards Health at Every Size, learning more about it, kind of investing in continuing education about it. And I kind of looked around the maternal body image, child feeding space, and I was like, nobody's doing this, like there were there were in our child feeding accounts. But when you kind of scratch the surface, you'll see that a lot of it feeds on parental pressures for their kids to eat correctly, like how to get your kids to eat vegetables, things like that. And so I kept posting on it was on Instagram under my mom and baby accounts like these like body image things and you know, Health at Every Size things. And then eventually, I was like, alright, this baby deal, my handle at the time was baby steps dietitian, I was like, this is not what I'm about anymore. And I changed it my handle to anti diet kids, because for as much as there's so many dietitians, and other creators, who are doing incredible work and helping adults heal their relationship with food, because more or less, they had a crappy childhood, when it came to came to the pressures they were under. But there wasn't really anyone that I could see that was bringing the anti diet approach, you know, upstream, to keep everybody falling in in the first place. And I realized that I was uniquely positioned to do this, because I had had the rare childhood experience of not being pressured for what my body looks like. And I now know that my mom had been under a lot of pressure to diet herself. And you know, the her upbringing in like the 70s and 80s. You know, I don't know exactly how she did this, because it wasn't really the cultural norm at the time. But she was like, I'm not saying a word about my daughter's body or what my kids eat. And, you know, I kind of grew up on mac and cheese and Campbell's Soup and stuff, but like, you know, it just wasn't a big deal, what we were eating. And that in and of itself, as I connect the dots later in life, realize that, you know, fostered that eating competence that is part of Ellyn Satter's body of work. And so anyway, I realized that having had this experience myself, it came very naturally to me to talk to other women about how to talk to their kids, you know, so I shifted my materials towards that. And as I said, like three times, this is all because I was thin. What I realized I want now is that I want kids in any size body, to have that experience that I did growing up in a thin body of your body is not a problem, thin, fat, doesn't matter, like your body is not a problem. So that is what I focus on now.
Stephanie Mara 09:20
Yeah, thanks for sharing all that. And what I really hear you pointing out is just the thin privilege, which we haven't really touched on too much in this series of we've been talking a lot about, you know, body positivity and body neutrality and body respect and all of that good stuff. But there is this thin privilege that you know, someone who could be eating mac and cheese, for example, like you were just stating, and even as kids, that kid that's eating mac and cheese that is thin, will be treated differently than a kid that is eating mac and cheese that is in a larger size body.
Diana Rice 09:56
Now, I had this experience once where so I have two daughters. They're both fairly thin. And we showed up at church one day, and they were doing a fundraiser, selling m&ms and I bought each of my kids a package of m&ms and they were sitting in the front row at church eating m&ms at 10 in the morning, and I did not have a problem with this. And it just hit me like, if my kids were in larger bodies, that would be judged and frowned upon, but it's totally fine. Because my kids are in smaller bodies. That's not cool.
Stephanie Mara 10:22
Yeah. So just with this awareness that I know a lot of parents really struggle with, how do they navigate this with their kids of also, maybe not also kind of bringing in of like, your body is thin so that's good, you know, even that correlation. Like, how have you navigated that with parents?
Diana Rice 10:42
Yeah, the most important thing is for the parent to demonstrate unconditional love and acceptance for their child's body, there is no getting around that outside of the home. Societally, things have not changed yet, and the kid is going off into the world, if they are in a larger, larger body is not going to accept them the way that the parent does. But that's not going to I don't want to ignore that that's not going away, a child in a larger body is going to be subject to more societal pressure than a child in a body and a parent of a child in a larger body, whether or not that parent is in a large body themselves, is going to be subject to more judgement of, you know, if the kids are at a pizza party, and their child wants three slices, like, is it a bad parent for not saying that they should only have one or whatever. But the work that I do with parents is that the things you teach your kids in your home and the experiences that they have so if they have the experience in the home, that there is nothing wrong with their body, their body is, you know, unconditionally loved and accepted and if they feel that in their blood and their bones every day of their childhood, that when they get into the world, and someone doesn't treat them that way, they will have the resilience or it'll just be sort of second nature for them to be like, what? No way in hell, like what did you just say to me, that's not going to make flying on an airplane any easier. Things that are not in the world that are not set up to support people in larger bodies, it's not going to necessarily make having an interaction with a doctor any easier. But I want it to create that confidence in kids of you know, if a doctor mistreats them, I'm not going back to that guy, if they have the resources to do so. You know, it's the same as I mean, there's a parallel here honestly, with, you know, whoever your child grows up to, to end up dating or maybe marrying, right, if you're, if kids are in abusive situations at home, then it is going to feel normal to them to perhaps be in a abusive romantic relationship. And when we absolutely pour out, you know, love and support and you know, for our kids seems so dumb to say if we can, we can avoid abusing our kids, like, yes, please avoid abusing your kids, then when they get out into the world, they will not tolerate that kind of thing, they will see the red flags, it is very similar with body image with the caveat of the world is not going to treat them, you know super well, I hope that we are on a better trajectory with that. But you know, at least we are able to, you know, plant those seeds, it's when my nutrition practice is called tiny seed family nutrition, planting those seeds in our kids so that they are built up with that strength and that love when they get to adulthood of there's nothing wrong with their bodies, no matter what the size of their body is.
Stephanie Mara 13:30
Yeah, it starts so young, needing to kind of bolster that confidence that you are not your body, and that your body deserves respect. And that if it is not receiving that out in the world, that that is not a person that gets to be a part of your life.
Diana Rice 13:46
Yeah, and hopefully, you have the privilege to do that. Because, you know, if you have poor medical insurance, and you can only see one doctor, it's not like there are going to be factors. And those are all societal level factors that really, you know, we should be working to change. But I think you know, as parents, like sometimes the best we can do is just focus on our own home. If you have, you know, a particular issue that you're active about, please, I hope that you know, you're pouring some energy into that. But you know, the best we can do is create that home is a safe place, and still be a safe place for our kids when they do have issues and they can call and you know, talk it through with someone who is safe to them, you know, and unfortunately, the way that a lot of kids are raised, I'm sure parents want to be doing their best for their kids. But when we believe that and I don't blame any parent for this, if you could somehow magically get your kid to be thin, they would be treated better in the world. So, you know a lot of parents who want that for their kids want it because they want their kids to have the best. It's like wanting them to go to an Ivy League school. You know, when parents have health concerns about body size, right? No parent wants to be setting their kid up for a chronic disease. And what we learn culturally is that if you don't address your child's body size you are.
Stephanie Mara 15:00
Yeah, what I really hear in that is really checking out as a parent, like it also starts within you of what are your beliefs around body and shape and you know what it means for health, what it means for acceptance, love, like all these things like what have you personally connected to body shape and size to like check that out within yourself. Because that will be sometimes often unconsciously shaping how you are interacting with your child if you are also maybe a little unaware of the beliefs that you're operating from that also were passed down to you.
Diana Rice 15:44
It's really sad, I really don't envy the women in particular in this position. And this sort of sort of generational shift of most women did not have a childhood, like I've described mine was, most women did experience going to Weight Watchers meetings with their parents or watching their own mom's diet and learning good food, bad foods. And just hearing the the media narrative about the obesity epidemic, or you know, rates of diabetes are skyrocketing and it's all because we're eating too much. And this generation, at least I'm noticing among my clients and followers, is kind of putting together the pieces that we've kind of been sold a lie, because all it ever produces is terrible self esteem and poor body image. And honestly, in terms of prioritizing health, prioritizing the wrong things to actually achieve chronic disease prevention. But the parents right now are in the position of driving without a roadmap, because they didn't have one growing up like it's much easier to do. This is everything that I teach is that like, you know, the whole point of doing this is teaching your kids so that they will go on and teach their kids the same and we will have broken the cycle, right. But it really sucks to be the first person to do that. Because driving without a roadmap, we all have learned sort of just a visceral response to body fat in terms of like, if you've lived your whole life, that it's unattractive or unhealthy and you see it on your child, then, you know, I don't blame anyone for only having ever learned one thing. And here's this dietician who had this like idyllic childhood she's describing saying, you gotta love your kids unconditionally. And like, that's hard. It's hard to challenge your own beliefs. It's hard to go up against your family members, maybe like you know, if you're trying to unconditionally accept accept a child in a larger body, but your parents don't think that what you're doing is right, and now you've got to challenge them. And you're also trying to set your kid up well, and then you're also working on your own body image and your own relationship with food like, Ahhhhhh, this really sucks. I do believe that there is a way but it doesn't mean that it is not a lot of work. But you know if I mean I've never met a parent in my life who didn't want to give their own children the world. And if this is something that's part of that, and if it's important to you, it's possible you guys like I don't want to minimize it, but it is possible.
Stephanie Mara 18:05
Yeah, you did such a beautiful job there I feel like of just describing the overwhelm in this, because it's so overwhelming. Like, I was just talking with someone yesterday of how I'm so grateful I didn't grow up when social media existed yet. Yeah, like it is now doubly hard of like your most embarrassing moments in like middle school could be captured by a phone now. So like even the pressures to always like, look right, act right and all of this in quotations, like, all of these things that our youth are now getting, like, there's so much more pressure than ever before. Because also, like, there's so much shame now that we see on social media of like, I've seen a lot of videos recently of you know, same mother, but one mother is maybe in a larger sized body making like doughnuts for breakfast for their kids. And then you know, they're being like, shamed and judged and criticized horribly. And then you have a mom that's in a thin sized body and she's making donuts for her kids in the morning and she's being celebrated and praised and look at you like bringing in all foods for your kids. So it so many layers of just bias that we're seeing.
Diana Rice 19:27
It parallels the, you know, the realities of body positivity of you know, as it has emerged, like body positivity is great, but you know, for like size 12 women, right? Or like for women who have the perfect hourglass figure, not like the beet belly, right? And the exact same thing with food. It's like, it's amazing, and you're doing such a great job to teach your kids that all foods fit, but only some parents because if you do that in a larger body, you're just like really being irresponsible. Yeah, I have clients in this position and it's all I can say when they experience it like that is like, yeah that's really effed up like, that should not be the case. And, you know, like, where do we go from here? Like, we need creators to keep on doing that, especially creators in larger bodies. And I imagine like what you just have to put yourself out there for the trolls? It just sucks.
Stephanie Mara 20:21
Yeah, yeah. It's also, like, what you're pointing to, and this came up in previous conversation of, it's not just all on the individual, and you've been pointing to it as well, that there is a large societal scale overhaul that we need to keep working towards, so that it's not just all on the individual to have to, you know, change this for all of our younger generations.
Diana Rice 20:43
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, you know, I do think that that is the the plus side of social media is that that is the place for us to have these conversations, and for people to kind of discover, you know, especially if your family has always been so diet oriented, and you read, you know, women's magazines, and you see the same, it is a really incredible resource to be able to like kind of discover and go down the rabbit hole of like, there is another way. So that's the benefit of social media. But, you know, I get hateful trolling comments, and I'm in a thin body. So like, it's got to be on steroids for people in bigger bodies, and it's scary. So, you know, there's just a lot there. And my real fear is that if people didn't have such terrible childhoods, like, you know, like, what is an internet troll except for somebody who's looking for somebody else to bully, because they were bullied themselves. It's just like, can't we just love the children?
Stephanie Mara 21:37
Yeah, this starts, like with our kids, and like how they're treated in this life. And so I'm wondering, what you've navigated with the parents you've worked with, of like, how do we have these conversations with our kids to like, prepare them to feel brave in the world that they can go out and be like, no matter how anybody talks about my body remarks about my body, I know who I am. And I know what's most important, like, how does a parent like have that these conversations that are big conversations to have.
Diana Rice 22:10
So I would say you actually want to start as young as possible, we have some data that kids show a preference for smaller bodies as early as age three. So basically, I kind of compare it to all of the things that I'm teaching my kids, like, when even when my kids were three, and they say, when I grow up, and I marry my husband, blah, blah, blah, it's like, okay, but like, you could marry a woman, if you want to, like, that's cool, too. Like, I'm planting all those seeds from day one, you know, not in like, like, like, husbands are bad, you know, like, just like, just so we're clear here.
Stephanie Mara 22:44
No matter where your path goes to, I'm going to accept you and be here for you.
Diana Rice 22:50
Exactly. And so it really is, I have one graphic on my social media, that's a pie chart. And you know, the body image and food stuff is really just one fraction of, you know, accepting your kids and everything, you know, their gender identities, and you know, what career they go into, and just all these things that we often hear of stories of kids having, you know, just challenges with their families over. But basically, in the same way that I'm doing that with, like, their, their sexualities later in life, or or let you know, like, even if they end up being straight, you know, accepting people who have other, you know, identities, saying what with the way we talk to kids about race and I think that it's really, instead of just going like all skin colors are good skin colors, or whatever, just going back to like, white people really screwed it up for a long time, and it's still going on. And as a family, we're not going to do that we're not going to be part of that, right? I talk to my kids in the same way about the response to body size of like, you know what, for a long time, people thought that being in a larger body was unhealthy and that people shouldn't eat and in order to change it, people shouldn't eat enough food and people should be hungry and people should feel bad about themselves in order to change it. And you know, you say this to a very young kid, and then they go, no, that doesn't make any sense, right? Just sort of having those conversations. I remember one time my kid, I pick my kid up from daycare and she mentioned that, I mean, she must have been two or three and she mentioned that, you know, Mrs. So and So at the daycare has a big tummy and big legs. Right. And now Mrs. So and So was not in the car. Right? So I don't say no we don't talk about bodies. No, no, no. I say, yes, she does. Isn't she beautiful? Like she's so kind. And then we get into the part about talking about bodies in general. And parents get very confused about this, because on the one hand, they're supposed to tell their kids that their kid's body is beautiful, and they're supposed to be saying positive things about their own bodies. But then there's also this like, we don't talk about other people's bodies situation, right, which we don't like, ideally, your kid would not be in the grocery store, I mean, young kids are going to do this because of the way that they think but you know, and saying he's fat or whatever. Right. I mean, it'd be great if that was as innocuous as he's wearing a blue shirt, right. And maybe we'll be there one day. But the way that I teach my kids about this has a lot to do with the way that I'm teaching them about body autonomy. So of course, we are having lots of conversations about no one can touch your body in a way that doesn't feel good to you. If you say stop, it doesn't matter if it's a hug, or a tickle or something that hurts, that person needs to stop, no questions asked. We don't hit other people, we don't pinch, even when we're angry, we don't hit you know, and, like, if somebody at school touches you, and they won't stop, you need to get a teacher like all this stuff about, no one gets to interact with your body in a way that you don't like. And I extend that to conversations about body like just words about bodies that don't involve touching. So if you think about your relationship with your partner, or your kids, these are intimate relationships. And we are going to say positive things about each other's bodies. And we all consent to that there's consent, right? It's just like touch. And so when we're teaching kids to talk about other people's bodies, if you say, you know, my class, if my classmate is fat, or whatever, he probably he may very well be, but you don't have his consent to use that language about his body. Right? And so, you know, that's sort of the difference. The importance here is that when we teach this to kids, yes, they're going to be respectful of other people. But again, when somebody comes at them with language about their body that they didn't consent to, you know, all bets are off, like, you know, like, no, that's not how it works. You don't have the right to do that. And so that is what I hope to be instilling in kids as they become adults. And you know, a lot of times, conversations about kids and body image have to do with, you know, don't say anything negative about your own body. Don't, you know, say that you're like, that's all true, too. But that's the tip of the iceberg. Because what we're really going for is children, understanding and humans, you know, children are the future grownups right. And we need future grownups who understand at their core, that everybody deserves to have enough food. Nobody deserves to be shamed for just existing. Like, whenever I say this stuff, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so basic. Why do we not do this?
Stephanie Mara 27:18
I know I'm even reflecting on like, I never got these messages when I was a kid. Oh my gosh.
Diana Rice 27:26
And it's just like, like, the message of everyone deserves to have enough food. Duh! You deserve to have a roof over your head, you deserve to have clean clothes, like, you deserve oxygen, like, oh my god. But anyway, anyway, nobody deserves to be shamed for their bodies. Nobody has to tolerate experiences of their bodies, whether it's touch, or words that they don't consent to. My approach is if we'll make a little army of future adults to do this, then things are going to be better on this particular topic. The whole world, dream big.
Stephanie Mara 27:58
Yeah, I really hear all the layers that you are going into, of how do we support our children in going out into the world with a sense of connection with themselves, which we're so being guided to disconnect from ourselves to fit in, to feel like we're going to belong around how we should exist in the world. And so I really hear you just starting as young as three years old. And then like, it's also never too late. So for everyone listening, like, "I missed that window," like, it's never too late to like, start having the dialogues with your kids now around what kind of relationship they want to have with their body, what a relationship with your body would even look like or feel like, like I know, for a lot of the adults that I work with, you know, we talk about how they were never guided towards having a conversation with their body or tuning into their body or, you know, addressing the emotions that are coming up in their body off of maybe how they were treated in their body. And so yeah, it starts really young of like, how do we teach this now when someone is still 3, 4 or 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 even like going through teenage years, when bodies are shifting and changing, like how do you keep in the dialogue, so that that deep connection with the body continues?
Diana Rice 29:24
Yeah, so I work with adults on intuitive eating as well. And this is the number one theme is that everyone is striving to meet the external criteria of what's the right thing to eat? What's the right way to have a body? What's the right job to have and people pleasing and all this stuff and all of these are external criteria, and it all ignores the self and the body right? And so that is the work is completely doing a 180 of what does my body need? What is respect for me not respect for the standards, right? And you know, not just listening to our bodies In terms of food, but in terms of self care and rest, and the kind of relationships we're willing to have, and things like that. And so I think it's really cool, you know, something that, you know, I describe this like idyllic childhood, but something I did not have in my childhood was really tuning into my emotions. My youngest kid is six right now and she will come to me and say, I have this feeling in my body and it's a bad feeling, but I don't know what it is. And we're just talking about emotions. I'm like, I'm not a therapist, I don't know. But like, you know, we'll kind of go through like, okay, well, did anything happen at school? Did anybody in your family say anything to you? We have the this great book series by Diane Adler. It's like the emotions book so there's one on sadness, and one on anxiety. And she will pull the whole set off this shelf and just like kind of go through until she figures it out. And it's just like, how many adults go through their day just feeling not good, but can't identify where that's coming from? Because we're taught to shut these things down. Basically, women in particular, right, you know, you got to put a smile on your face, even though it's not directly related to food or body image. I really think that working with your kids to work through their emotions. I mean, this is why some of the biggest trends in like, in parenting right now are, you know, gentle parenting is one word for it. I like responsive parenting, when your kid if they hit their sibling, the first thing I say is we do not hit we do not do that to other people's bodies. But then it's not what's wrong with you, go to your room, we don't hit in this house, it's what's going on here? Why are you having big feelings, you know, and the kid is probably not going to say, oh, so and so was mean to me at school so I'm acting out, but like, it is the parents job to peel that onion, and help the kid identify it. But Diane Adler books have various tools about, you know, calming down, or we're so blessed at my kids school, you know, they have two counselors on staff and the kids are able to go to these classes where they learn they're basically learning cognitive behavioral therapy in terms of I have this thought, it creates this feeling which creates this action and I was like, no, but I didn't learn that until I was like 35. And so I think all that stuff is really valuable, in terms of helping our kids just grow up to be like, well adjusted thriving adults in general, but it's going to help the body image piece to have let's maybe, you know, your teenager goes to a pool party, and they are the largest kid there and that creates feelings, right? But you know, if we're going to, we're going to look at it from a CBT lens, the thought is, I'm bigger than everyone, the feeling is I don't like that feeling, the action is I'm going to go on a diet. If we are able to help our kids have awareness of this, then maybe the action becomes, I'm only going to spend time with my friends who support me or whatever, like, you know, whatever it is, or, you know, I'm gonna read a book about, you know, body or whatever, like, you know, like, anything other than going on a diet. Right?
Stephanie Mara 33:00
Right. It's supporting the child in coming closer to themselves in that emotion and not even kind of viewing that emotion as something to be fixed. Like, oh, that brings up something for you that you were perceived as the largest body there. Like, what did that mean to you? Let's talk through this together. And so okay, so if you're at a pool party again, and you feel like you're the largest body there, here's maybe resources we can explore next time that it's not about changing the body. But how can you exist in your body that is great just as it is to feel like, hey, my body belongs here, too.
Diana Rice 33:40
Yeah, and raising that awareness, the same as we are raising awareness of other kinds of discrimination of, you know what this setting sucks, like, if other teens are judging you, and hopefully, you you know, I mean, kids are getting smart, which is great. And you know, in terms of, there's a lot more acceptance for gender identity. And so my kids aren't teenagers yet, but I've got my fingers crossed when they get to high school, this will be more just more commonplace of like, like, if somebody does make a negative comment about somebody else's body, like, that's the person that gets all the eyeballs, right and not...but like, if that doesn't happen, then I would want the kids to not just have to do the work themselves to be more comfortable. That's part of it. But like, do the work of recognition of this is not the way I want society to be, and speaking out about it and cultivating friendships and relationships that don't make them feel that way. So there's a lot there, it's a big onion.
Stephanie Mara 34:35
Yeah, I'm curious in all of this, like, what were resources that really supported you because I just hear, like you've done a lot of exploring around how to help your own children, and help them be in the world to speak out, to speak up. And so I'm wondering what resources helped you along the way to kind of cultivate this kind of parenting and relationship with your kids.
Diana Rice 34:59
Yeah, great question. I'm kind of a continuing ed junkie, which is not great for my pocket. But I actually have not done any specific body image training either for adults or kids and that's probably next on my list. I do think that like, for me, I did the certified Intuitive Eating Counselor training, but you know, for any layperson listening to this, it would just be like, reading the intuitive eating book and doing the workbook because the foundation of that is intuition, what is coming from you? What are the things that your body needs to thrive? And how can you identify and reject the societal standards that are not working for you. And so that was a big part of it for me. Also, the approach that I use in my pediatric counseling is called responsive feeding. It stems from the responsive parenting movement, which is actually that, you know, parents, especially parents who don't have a roadmap, they just want a black and white answer. Do I give my kid dessert or not? If they don't eat the apples, do I give them grapes or not? What do I do if they come home and they say, I'm fat, you know, someone at school said, I'm fat, like, what is the script? Right? I do provide resources like that. But the thing with being responsive about it is that you have to be in tune with your child's needs, which the most important thing about this is that, when you as the parent are in tune with the child's needs, before they can fully they don't have the cognition to do that for themselves. So when you do it on their behalf, the same way that we do a lot of things on behalf of our kids, we put them to bed, we cook their meals, right? When we do these things lovingly on their behalf, then they become adults for whom it is second nature to do those things on their own behalf. Like I have plenty of adult clients who are not necessarily struggling with disordered eating, there's just just not eating, just like not prioritizing breakfast, lunch and dinner. And, you know, interview them about their childhoods, and both parents were working and you know, again, this is a societal structure that we should be working to, you know, support people better not that both parents shouldn't work, but just that, like, more affordable foods or like ready to go foods that don't require cooking, you know, so you know, teaching your kids, whether it's getting enough sleep, or you know that, you know, in any given situation, you know, maybe if they're asking for dessert, we shouldn't give them dessert, maybe they're asking for dessert, because they're hiding their feelings, and they don't want to face it, in which case, I would say there's nothing wrong with dessert but the bigger issue here is, you know, having the feelings talk. And so that responsiveness is you know, my training in responsive feeding has really helped me help other parents do this, again, recognize the challenge of driving without a road map. And again, that brings it back to doing your own work on yourself is actually in and of itself going to make you better able to address these things and your kids. So that would bring it back to doing some work on intuitive eating, or body image. And then I will say that the last resource that has been really valuable to me, is I started there's kind of this like conversation going on in the pediatric feeding space of are we dietitians providing medical nutrition therapy, or are we coaches, you know, providing coaching parents on, like the feeding dynamics in their house, I've also done Ellyn Satter's training, which was all to do with feeding dynamics, but it's very much about staying in your lane with food. Where this is going among my peers is like, you can't just like get everything right with food, but then also be using other tactics. You know, I'll just pick on timeouts or something that like, you know, the thing with timeouts is that it doesn't help the kid process their emotion necessarily, and you know, and you know, so you're getting everything right with food, but things are going wrong in other spaces. And that always manifests in food, because that is one of the one things that kids can control. And so if the kid is frustrated, that they've got a new baby sister, and the kids getting so much attention, and the kid is taking it out by refusing to eat, well, there is no right answer in terms of what to say, or what to do to help the kid to eat, we have to zoom back and look at everything that's going on in this kid's life and you know, sort of address things there. So anyway, because of that, I went on to get certified as a parent coach, and the program that I did is called positive discipline, which everybody was like not the best name, it makes sense once you understand the concept, what the true meaning of discipline is actually like self care, being able to do the right things for yourself to thrive, versus you know what society says. Anyway, the fundamental concept in positive discipline and what I really loved about this is like I knew this all along, somewhere in me, and again, this is a training I did for professionals, but there is like a consumer oriented book that you can read about this. There's like positive discipline coaches in like, all over the world and you can take classes from them. The driving concept behind positive discipline is that all human beings are seeking two things, belonging and significance. And, you know, the thing about body image and belonging is like, that's why people struggle with body image, they want to belong, they want that acceptance, right. And so if we like, as I started this interview talking about can we pour out that unconditional, you know, acceptance and belonging for them early on, that's going to be enormous in terms of their overall just being well adjusted. And then you know, significance, it can be helping your parent unload the dishwasher, like having a role in the family, it can also be, you know, fighting anti fat bias, right, in terms of like, you know, contributing to society, that has really helped me frame the work that I do with parents. And basically, all of those resources that I named, in particular, intuitive eating and the positive discipline, are available as consumer oriented books. So even if you're not a professional, you can, you know, get them online. Those are the things that fuel my coaching and my courses and things like that. So, you know, those threads are always running through and those are consumer oriented resources as well.
Stephanie Mara 41:08
I really appreciate what you're bringing in here of like, when there is a focus, like over focus on food, or a body image concerns, like as a parent is getting really, really curious about what's really going on here, like not diminishing that there's something maybe going on with food or body but also, like, why is that coming up in this particular moment? You know, what is happening at school? What messages are they receiving, you know, as maybe they get their own phones, and they're on social media, like what messages are now they consuming? And just really bringing in that curiosity like you're saying this attunement, there is no right answer in the moment. It's like, how much can I support this little human being in feeling really seen and understood in this moment, so that even what's coming up for them, there's no shame that they're worrying about this thing. But it's information around something is coming up, or a belief is starting to be cultivated that may need to be challenged before it gets solidified.
Diana Rice 42:12
Yeah, that's actually a trap that, unfortunately, that I see body positive parents fall into is that if their child is called fat at school, or whatever, and the child comes home and shares it and the parent goes straight into there's nothing wrong with being fat, fat is beautiful. Like, we love you. That is one element of it. Right? But that may, unfortunately, diminish the child's feelings of not belonging and being accepted. Right? And so there's nothing wrong with that fat is beautiful and your friends shouldn't treat you shouldn't say that to you if they don't have your permission. And how did that make you feel? And what actions do you feel like taking because of it? And are those going to be, you know, constructive for you? And the world is effed up and they shouldn't have said that in the first place. And you and I are going to be part of the solution. Right? I don't I don't fault anybody from going straight to the you know, fat is beautiful, like, you know, without all the other stuff I named because you need a lot of tools to be able to even recognize that. But yeah, there's a lot there in terms of cracking the nut. I mean, like, it's the same as what we know about eating disorders in that no one's eating disorder is exclusively about their body image. It's about control. It's about power or acceptance, you know, we saw eating disorders skyrocket at the beginning of covid. So it was about stress and change. And so, you know, just painting broad strokes with body positivity is not actually going to fix it, we have to be in tune with, what kind of pressure are our kids under, you know, what are they experiencing at school? What are we contributing, you know, are we putting pressures on them that are not constructive? I'm big on, gosh, I could talk about this away. I use the authoritative parenting approach with all my clients. So there's like four styles of parenting authoritarian, authoritative, permissive and neglectful. Only one that ever, ever shows that positive results in the research is authoritative. And so it's not that we shouldn't, I guess I'll use the word pressure our kids, like challenge our kids to you know, tie their own shoelaces, you know, do their math homework, whatever it is, like, they would just always be toddlers if we if we didn't, right, like, you know, challenge them to grow and thrive. But it's got to be in the best interest of the kid. And so, this sucks so much, like so much that we learned about what your kid's profession is or what their body size is, we think that those are in the best interest of the kid. I'm not gonna lie like it is in the best interest of your kid to be in a smaller body. Their life would be better, right? But that's not right. And so, you know, maybe their life would be better if they went to medical school, but if they're not scientifically oriented, or you know, like, they're life wouldn't be better because they'd hate being a doctor, right? So we really have to reflect on what we are bringing into this as parents, and you know what we actually want for our kids. And then the next layer of the onion is what are they experiencing at school? What are they seeing on social media? Like is your elementary school and as I'm saying this, I'm like, Oh, crap, high school is around the corner.
Stephanie Mara 45:17
Like it's coming!!!
Diana Rice 45:19
I might be singing a different tune in like 5 years.
Stephanie Mara 45:22
Well like, what you're pointing out is, this is an ongoing journey. It never ends. And so even just for any parent that's listening to like, take the pressure off of that every single conversation has to like you have to like nail it. Because like, these are going to be conversations that you're going to be having to be in over and over and over again. And especially as your kids' body changes through teenage years, you know, through high school, through college, like these are ongoing dialogues that need to occur. And I'm wondering, for anyone, I always like to offer like a little baby step, like for anyone listening, what is maybe a baby step that you offered such amazing insights today that they can maybe take a baby step towards some of these conversations, and dialogues with their kids.
Diana Rice 46:13
So the bigger thing, like you're right, like, there's so much stress to get every, you know, conversation right. I always tell parents, like your kids actually probably aren't going to remember those specific conversations, but they will remember themes of their childhood, right? Like, they probably won't ever remember exactly when they learned that it's okay to marry somebody of the same gender, but they will remember that their parents don't judge them for that, right. And so same thing with body image and things related to food, like, you know, it's not about any particular thing. And if you do say something that your kid interpreted the wrong way like you could say other things, basically, but I mean, honestly, like, I hate to say this, it's not really a baby step, but doing your own work is the key. And I think it's also important to acknowledge, you know, we've used the phrase body positivity a lot here. I think also just normalizing that everybody doesn't like their body, at some point, some people don't like their body more than other people don't like their body, but, you know, instead of, you know, the kid says, I don't like my big belly, instead of saying, your belly is beautiful, like, you know, fat is beautiful. You could say, everybody feels like that sometimes, it's just like, everybody walks into a party and is like nervous about who they're going to talk to. Right? Even though it seems like everybody else has no social anxiety and is just having the time of their life, just everybody feels like that. It's normal, it may not go away. And that's okay. You know, the more important thing is the self care behaviors behind it of not starving yourself, not, you know, harming yourself or leaving yourself out of social situations that you would actually enjoy going to.
Stephanie Mara 47:48
It's an important baby step that you're offering of to be able to be in these conversations, it starts with how do I have this conversation with myself. And I love that you actually brought this in, because I feel like maybe this has been a theme in a lot of the interviews that I've done is that the point of having a body is not to love it, you do not have to love your body, you do not always have to like the body that you're in. And so it feels like almost every single person that has come on here has reiterated that and it's I find that's where we're going, you know, as we continue on this, how do we have a relationship with our body and appearance journey that it's also like, yeah, some days, you're not gonna like being in this body, but that doesn't mean just as you were talking about, that doesn't mean that you don't feed this body, that doesn't mean that you don't respect this body, that doesn't mean that you don't care for this body. And it doesn't mean that you also stop fighting for this body. Because this body also deserves to exist just like every other body, even if you're having a hard day being in your body.
Diana Rice 48:50
Yeah, absolutely. I think the baby step that I would leave parents with is that when something feels really hard with your kids, it is probably because something is going on with you. And don't blame yourself for that. Like, that's all we've ever learned, right? But if we're here to break cycles, then reflecting on what's going on with me? Doing your own work on it, there are resources, and you know, then it will be it'll be a lot more natural to be able to care for your kids in that same way.
Stephanie Mara 49:16
Yeah, it's really hard to be a parent. It is a 365 day job that you commit to for the rest of your life. And so it's also like you said, like cutting yourself some slack while also being aware that yeah, like your kids are going to be really strong mirrors back to yourself, guiding you towards your own healing and yeah, find resources, find people, you know, find communities, find other parents, find therapists, whatever is financially doable to you to receive the support that you also need on your journey to do the growth that your children are also going to call to you to do.
Diana Rice 49:55
I love that. Yeah, absolutely.
Stephanie Mara 49:56
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being here today and being in this conversation. It's very important. And I just really am grateful for all of your wisdom and how can those listening here keep in touch with you and your work?
Diana Rice 50:08
So my online platform is anti diet kids. That is my instagram handle. And I have a Facebook group as well called raising anti diet kids. I've been just like so blessed by the way that that group has grown, I would say that's the place to get started with these resources, we have like a couple of welcome modules where people can find all the research that this approach is based on. So if you're a Facebook user, that's an awesome place to get started. For a lot of people say that it's like their first, people will just be like, I didn't know that this way of parenting existed, you know. So it's like their first approach or exposure to that. And then I have a substack newsletter called the messy intersection. And that is in the messy intersection of doing your own work and raising your kids and it's a both a newsletter and a podcast. So that is Dianarice.substack.com, and my counseling practice is, tiny seed nutrition, tinyseednutrition.com.
Stephanie Mara 51:01
And I will leave all of those links in the show notes and just thank you so much, again, for being here and sharing this very important just wisdom and experience in the world.
Diana Rice 51:11
My pleasure. This was such an important topic. I'm so glad you invited me.
Stephanie Mara 51:14
Yeah, I can feel your passion for this work. So for those who are listening, definitely go and follow and stay in touch. And you know, just as we wrap up like to anyone listening, remember to treat yourself with compassion if you're a parent. There is so many layers to explore here. And you know, if you have any questions, I will leave our contacts in the show notes. And I hope you all have a wonderful rest of your day. Bye!
Keep in touch with Diana here:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/anti.diet.kids/
Website: https://tinyseednutrition.com/
Substack: https://dianarice.substack.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/antidietkids
Resources mentioned: