2025 Forecast of Trends to Embrace and Abandon in Functional Medicine and Somatic Therapy

Welcome to the Satiated Podcast, where we explore physical and emotional hunger, satiation and healing your relationship with your food and body. I'm your host, Stephanie Mara Fox, your somatic nutritional counselor.

Social media has gifted us with the ability to track trends more closely, especially in wellness, diet, and fitness cultures. There were a lot of trends in 2024 including ozempic, cortisol face, the continued focus on eating enough protein, lifting weights, and the demonization of foods like hyper-palatable foods, seed oils, and sugar. Trends can make listening to your body confusing. They can decrease the amount of trust you may have in your body. Should you listen to the person who is putting themselves out there as the "expert" on your body or does your body provide feedback no practitioner could ever provide you? I've seen in the realm of somatics and nervous system healing this past year there was a peak in somatic practices being offered. I've had so many people ask me what somatic practice can they do when they feel the urge to binge. Now, somatic practices like shaking can be helpful at times but when they're practiced with the intent to fix your emotions, no somatic practice will ever feel like enough. This is because your emotions aren't something to be fixed. You're going to feel different emotions and sensations your entire life and no somatic practice can fix your humanness. This is why I feel it is important to reflect on the trends that are out there to become aware of how they might be affecting you and your perspective on your body.

For this conversation reflecting on 2024 and what we hope to see in 2025, I had to bring my dear friend and colleague Michelle Shapiro back onto the podcast. The thing I love about Michelle's approach to the body and healing is that she rides the delicate line between compassion and no bullshit honesty. Michelle is an integrative and functional nutritionist who has worked for over 7 years with more than 1,000 people helping them navigate symptoms such as anxiety, digestive issues, weight loss, mast cell activation syndrome, POTS, hormones, and living in what she calls a highly sensitive body. She's the host of the Quiet the Diet Podcast and the creator of the Highly Sensitive Body Hub. We chat about the evolving landscape of wellness and diet culture, the commodification of health practices, the trends of 2024, what we hope to see in 2025, healing from long covid and other health issues, creating the foundations of health, the role of self authority and curiosity in your healing, and so much more.

One note before we get into all of it, in my episodes with Michelle we like to go deep and talk about some edgy topics. We do chat briefly about how the politics of this next year are also going to affect the health trends we see. Regardless of your political affiliations, everyone is always always welcome here. What is most important is that we treat each other with respect. With all of my episodes, take what resonates with you and throw out what doesn't. We end our chat talking about how important connection and community is going to be in this upcoming year to find the people who see you and get you. I hope to create that for you here that you're always welcome here with whatever you're going through.

A few ways to further connect with me in this next year include joining Satiated+ and offering a few dollars every month to the show. This year, I have started to email Satiated+ members every first week of the month offering them the opportunity to ask me anything as a thank you for supporting the podcast. If you'd like to join and be able to ask me anything each month, click on the link in the show notes. Next, you can check out my self paced Somatic Eating® courses at stephaniemara.com/learn or join the waitlist for the next Somatic Eating® Program that will start in May at somaticeating.com. Now, welcome Michelle!

I don't even feel like I could state how excited I am that you are back on the podcast. I don't even feel like I could express enough how excited I am you are here, and I know that for a lot of regular listeners, they know our podcast episodes. But I just want to start off with anyone who's new here to introduce the amazingness of Michelle to them, and you just talk a little bit about yourself before we get into today's conversation.

Michelle Shapiro 05:15

I am the most excited to be here that I've ever been, to be anywhere, and I'm not excitable. We were just talking before we started about how Steph's episode on Quiet the Diet, my podcast, is my favorite episode of Quiet the Diet, and we have had 60 episodes, and it is still my favorite episode. And I get feedback constantly about how it's all of my clients favorite episode that I've ever done. That's because you spoke for most of it, by the way. So just have to say that. So I am Michelle Shapiro. I am an integrative and functional registered dietitian, and I work with clients kind of in two categories. One being, how do we if we want to lose weight while still being body neutral or body positive and not kind of murk up our relationship with food, which is a place that Stephanie knows very, very well, and supports people in a lot. And then another space that I've been in in in kind of more recent years is the space of long covid, MCAS, pots, and helping people with support when they're I had this term which I use for these kind of type of bodies, which is these highly sensitive bodies, or hsbs, as we might call them in this podcast, and I have a team of four nutritionists along with me, so it's five of us, and we work with any supportive nutrition condition and any condition in nutrition that we can support, and then also we try to do it from a really compassionate place. And that's my deal. That's my shtick.

Stephanie Mara 06:39

Yeah, you were actually so supportive to me when I was going through long covid. And just the ways that you would clarify some things, of like, I'm going through this, but I'm not quite sure how this is connected to this. And you'd be like, oh, it's just connected in this way for anyone who's struggling with long covid or pots or highly sensitive body, or, you know, all the things that we're really discovering has, you know, also with what we talk about here, a root in nervous system dysregulation. Highly recommend also working with you, because it takes both, and I've been exploring that so much here on the podcast, of how it takes both emotional and physical healing. And that kind of is like a perfect segue in today that I wanted to talk about, what we're sensing 2025 is gonna bring in kind of this wellness, diet, fitness, culture, where's the pulse? Where are we feeling all this is going to because there's a lot of trends that I have been seeing grow so much in 2024 and I feel like are going to get even bigger in 2025 and I kind of want to get your feel of what you've been noticing and sensing both on social media and the people that you work with.

Michelle Shapiro 07:50

You know, the one thing I want to mention first is it's not only that we were there for each other during this long covid time, but you also have to admit that I was like, cruel to you. And I was like, Steph, take this supplement! I was like, don't talk to me again until you take this supplement, which is part of the approach as well sometimes. Sometimes we need to yell at each other to do the things we need to do, which actually the reason I'm bringing this up is because I'm kind of seeing a lot of the people who, like us, have been really compassionate, really gentle practitioners, the trend I'm seeing is we're kind of rolling back a little bit and being a little bit more like, hey, we also have to do the things we have to do for our health, obviously, in the most gentle and compassionate way possible. But I think this is a trend I'm seeing with even my most like loving gentle practitioner friends, is that this is kind of the year of we need to get the basics down in our health, and we kind of need to walk it back in order to walk it forward. And I'm excited about that part. What I'm not as excited about is that, conversely, the reason why I felt like I need to focus so much on foundations is because I'm seeing so much focus on very minute aspects of functional medicine, specific detoxes, specific diets, very strong elimination diets, and we can talk about some of them, and they're being like, more than ever, this hyper focus on minutia as opposed to like, what do we need to do to be a human and so I notice a lot of people like myself, who is you, because we're very similar in how we practice different degrees, similar mindset. I'm seeing us walking it back, but still being pretty firm and like we have, there are non negotiables with our health, while I'm seeing a lot of the internet going really into food dyes, and really into some words that I can't say, but really into like, minutia of this is an endocrine disruptor when we're not focusing like, and when it comes to endocrine disruptors or something, we need to be focused on like, is your liver functioning? Do you have enough protein for your body to like efficiently run, not is there one chemical specifically that's harming your hormones. Even though I think that's valid too, and I do obviously validate the scientific evidence, it's usually not the whole in one that people want it to be when they stop drinking out of plastic water bottles.

Stephanie Mara 07:58

Yeah, I completely agree with that some practitioners that I found myself working with as I was exploring even my own long covid healing journey would not even, you know the whole saying, like test, don't guess, they would just be like, oh, you just need to follow this protocol. But how do you know that that's the protocol that I need to follow? And so I've seen a lot of practitioners, and maybe it's coming from also burnout for themselves, of how many people that they're sensing need support, that they're just creating these systems and cleanses and things you were just pointing to, that it's just like everyone could be could benefit from this, and so I'm just gonna put everyone on this.

Michelle Shapiro 10:55

Yeah, what you're mentioning is kind of the even bigger topic is forget about social media. Let's bring it back to what's happening in practitioners offices with people. That's the bigger issue. Functional Medicine used to be this space where when you kind of went to a conventional provider, that conventional provider failed you, you end up in a functional medicine doctor's office. Ya know all the reviews on functional medicine doctors websites. I went to countless doctors, and then I finally went to this functional medicine doctor, and they finally were the one who found the real root cause. Now the clients that I'm seeing and the clients that you're seeing are the people who went to the functional medicine doctors already, they got sicker with those cookie cutter protocols, especially if you're in that highly sensitive body, and now they're ending up in our offices. It's like there's now been an added step to this journey, and that added step is a lot of lost hope, lost money, true devastation when it comes to like medical and financial resources and energy. You know, even the energy of putting hope into a new practitioner, it's debilitating for people. So I'm definitely seeing that, and I'm definitely seeing the bastardization of functional medicine and what it's supposed to be. Functional medicine is not handing someone a list of supplements to take, because that's conventional medicine. It's the same exact thing as conventional medicine. Functional Medicine was this safe haven where we could really, like get to know the inner workings of someone's soul, body mechanics, energy, everything, and take that whole picture and understand what's going on underneath the hood. From that, it was intended to be very holistic, not a pill for every ill like conventional medicine is. So I've been devastated to see that trend, and I have seen it in almost every client who walks through our doors now too.

Stephanie Mara 12:39

Yeah, I completely agree with that. And from the lens of somatic therapy, I'm seeing that in somatics of the same way of kind of a pill for every ill. Of being asked the question a lot of like, well, what somatic practice can I do to make myself feel better? Like, what can I do to fix this where even somatics is getting skewed towards, oh, you just like, shake, and then you'll feel better and then you know, like, or you'll just like, lean against a wall and let your leg shake, which like, okay...

Michelle Shapiro 13:09

Little ice on your vagus nerve.

Stephanie Mara 13:11

[Laughing] Ice on your vagus nerve. Yeah. Everyone's dunking their heads in big bowls of ice water, and it's like, yeah, okay. I don't want to diminish that some of these things can be resources at times, but it gives this perception that there's something that I can fix being human, instead of like, wow, I'm feeling something uncomfortable can I come closer to myself in my discomfort? And so I see it in a very similar way, of we're still approaching the human body as, like, broken, and we need to find the solution of how to fix it.

Michelle Shapiro 13:46

It's very capitalism centric, commodification of the human body centric. You know, I get asked a lot by different products like, oh, can we sponsor you? The very few product sponsors I've allowed on the podcast are ones that I've used for many, many years, and I reached out too because I'm like, I know the validity of this, and I think it's part of a whole plan, versus there's all these, oh, I'm gonna use a trigger word for myself and we, I want to talk about this too, all these longevity companies that always reach out to me and are saying, like, oh, do you want to try our new cellular metabolism product. It always points back to these companies, not at all addressing the root cause. It's like, if your body is a fire that's burning, just throwing a supplement into that fire, like it's not being metabolized properly, it's not being utilized properly. So certainly, I'm seeing that. And the conversation around longevity is something that's a whole 2025 conversation that we need to have too, but it really comes down to this commodification of the human body. That's what all of this is and all that we're seeing. But I'm really sad, like truly sad, that functional medicine has fallen into that space where every doctor has their own supplement line now, and by the way, I think functional nutrition supplements are extremely valid. Use them all the time in my practice, but it's not a fix for a root cause, which are mostly lifestyle driven, right, and stress driven and trauma driven.

Stephanie Mara 15:15

Right. You know, I've seen the same thing where, I've even been there before, where you're taking like, a million supplements, thinking like, this is what I have to do to facilitate health in my body without addressing am I around enough people? Like, am I connecting with people? Am I getting outside enough? Am I taking in enough sun? Like, am I drinking enough water? Like, kind of the basics, even I know you've talked about on previous episodes. I feel like we've gotten to this place where it feels like it should be more complicated, because people are putting out like even you were pointing to earlier of like, all these fancy words of chemicals and things that you need to stay away from. And it makes health feel really complicated, rather than just like, hey, this can actually feel really simple, and we need to start with the simple things that are free and available to any single human person, which is not sexy, it's not sellable. I think the other thing that I've been exploring a little bit here on the podcast is also this, it's hard to feel into you are an expert of your own body, when we're told in so many different ways, even sometimes even from our upbringing, of that someone else is the expert of us. And so that maybe starts from your upbringing, and then it solidifies from the culture that you grew up with, and then like everybody else has the answer for you, except for yourself.

Michelle Shapiro 16:38

Yeah, I'm trying to not go into a political space by talking about this at all, because we will never do that. But it does come down to, like, even when you're talking about the commodity of health, right? Like, it's about pursuing and buying this feeling of this person who's, like, clean, green, whatever esthetic like you're trying to buy the fitness you're trying to buy that thing. And in doing so, we are, like, trying to purchase our way out of discomfort, and we are not able to do that, because we do have to in order to heal probably experience some level of discomfort. Now, not torturous discomfort, because that puts us into a very dangerous place, but we probably at the like core of many things is our resistance to experiencing discomfort in the first place. So I think the message is we cannot buy our way out of pain or discomfort, but the things that are free are often more valuable, but like you said, not as sexy. And then there is that, like authority piece of it, which is still part of the commodity conversation, it's still part of the commerce aspect of the conversation, which is that we have been trained to only believe in authority figures for our health, and I'm excited in 2025 to see that a lot of people who have like, different licenses and different opinions and people who even don't, I want to hear from them. I want to hear from real people who have real experiences and they're valid. I'm not like one of those dietitians who's like, only dietitians can give nutrition advice. I think we need so many boots on the ground helping people. I think we should not deny anyone who wants to help people, as long as they're doing it in a safe way, obviously, and not fear mongering and intimidating people, you know, doing things that are unsafe, of course. But I want everyone to be a health coach. I want everyone to help other people. I think that's a very good thing. And when we create this hierarchical structure of we can only listen to doctors for even nutrition advice, it creates a lot of barriers to entry for health that I really would love if they weren't there.

Stephanie Mara 18:55

Yeah, I do want to get into more, and I'm glad you pointed this in this direction of like, what you're excited about, but I do want to take a note on it's really interesting just your perspective of naming like, yeah, I see that so much of stop taking advice from people that don't have a background in this. And I know that in the therapeutic world, there are a lot of people who can feel very therapeutic to you, and it's really about you trusting yourself of wisdom comes from like, literally any person at any place at any point in time. And it's like, how can I feel into what this person is saying? Does it resonate with me, and does it actually strike a chord in my body that makes me feel seen and safe and understood here? And that that can come from any person. So I'm glad that you're naming that, because there is a lot of and I do get the other side of, like, a lot of people can also be causing harm, especially nutritionally, when it isn't sound nutritional guidance or an advice. So it's kind of like, it's both feeling it out and then like, doing maybe even, like, a little bit of reading and looking up and being like, okay, this person suggested that I eat this specific thing for breakfast. Like, where is that coming from? Is that actually accurate, and how does it feel in my own body?

Michelle Shapiro 20:22

I'm always more inclined to listen to people who are practitioners or healers by any trade. People will not be surprised to know that we both practice within scope, but we practice pretty similarly, which is funny. And you obviously come from a therapeutic background, and I come from nutrition background, but a person who is listening and has the skills and scope to do so, you're gonna come to the same place, because it's really about the person, so we're gonna often come to the same place. Now, I'm not saying that dietitian should ever practice therapy. It's not within scope, but the conversations around food that we're having, I would assume, very similar, because the conversations we have are very similar. In my opinion, the healer is a healer. You know this about the therapy world, where there's even a hierarchy, psychologist over social work, like whatever stratification, I don't believe that, but you know, whatever stratification exists, which is also part of, unfortunately, I got to bring it back, it's part of the capitalist thing. It's all part of the same thing. And that is what happens when and again, I'm not even anti capitalism or anything. I don't have, like, an insurance based practice. I do not exist in a socialist health care system by any means. But it's just that is literally what happens as a result of, we create authority figures to give value. And I agree with you completely. Like wisdom can be found in so many places, and everyone needs so much help right now, I think that I want to see more people stepping into their natural gifts of healing, and I want to see more people not being afraid to be like, you know what? I want to help people with this and like, I might not have like, the exact right license, but I'm willing to learn. I'll also tell you that when it comes to social media, I really look even in people I'm following friends, colleagues, I really look for people who are not giving nutrition specific advice, but are giving an understanding that they understand other human beings and how they work. I don't give nutrition advice on my Instagram, like, I will say things that are, like, philosophical statements very high level about nutrition. I often create posts that people can make connections about their bodies. So I might say, like, here's five super weird histamine symptoms that you might not have known so then people can, someone can spark something in them to become curious and investigate more. So where I would be nervous about following someone is if they say, here's five deadly inflammatory foods that you can never eat, or something like that, that's where I would say, where's the license. You know, nutritionists in general, we are not trained to immediately give recommendations, right? We are trained as nutrition counselors. Dietitians are trained as nutrition counselors who take a full intake before you give any recommendation, you are actively listening, like the process is really collaborative. It's really not about just handing someone a piece of paper with recommendations. It's really about meeting someone where they are and taking in all of them and the scope of all of them to make those recommendations. So if I see people on social media making those blanket statements about nutrition, I'm instantly like, oh, they've they're not practitioners. They've not sat with someone in that or they're not practitioners that I would be excited about, I will say. So that's who I'm always looking for, and looking for my clients to follow. If they're going to follow on social media, like real practitioner practitioners, you do not give vagus nerve tips. That's not your page, right? Your page is just like mine. We give these very high level thought experiments. That's like the goal, and that's because we know Stephanie, between one client you had and another, they're gonna have a completely different reaction. It's not catered. You can't cater everything to everyone, unless you go very high level, and then you can kind of cater to most people when you're doing that.

Stephanie Mara 24:06

Yeah, and it's interesting, the posts that I have put out on even like Instagram, for example, that has given maybe a suggestion of a tip, and it always kind of like makes my heart sink a little bit of those are the ones that get the most views. It does kind of tap me into that that is where we're potentially at, is that so many people are struggling so much in how to be in their body, and all the symptoms that they may be navigating, or, you know, all the food behaviors that feel way too intense to be with in their body while they're going through that, that it is kind of like, okay, well, could I just...

Michelle Shapiro 24:47

Just tell me what to do.

Stephanie Mara 24:48

Just tell me what to do, right? Like, just give me something that might be able to calm my system a little bit. And I get that. And so it's hard to be in this space of being like, I want to be of support, and that a lot of this is learning how to be with discomfort in a pace that works for you. And there isn't really a fix for being human. Like I see that a lot of even when we're trying to approach like feeling emotions of well, if I just do this somatic exercise, then I'll fix my emotion, and I don't have to feel this. What happens when the sadness and the despair and the anger and the anxiety and the worry come back, because they always will, because that's a natural human experience to have. You know, even I see more in your realm, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts of this, of like I know having navigated histamine issues because of long covid, like, it's not like it just magically has gone away. I've worked on it a lot, but there are things that will increase my histamine bucket where I'm gonna get symptoms and that might be ongoing, that if I look at myself continuing to be like, oh, I'm not healed yet, you know, it can kind of like, keep me stuck where I am instead of like, okay, like I am probably 99% healed from my long covid healing journey and can I be a person that is always going to be navigating a body that is going to need some support finding homeostasis, rather than oh my gosh, I need a panic, there's something wrong with me. I did something wrong to make this happen in my body. You know, it keeps us kind of stuck on the healing journey. Instead of being like I am a person who is always going to be on a journey with a constantly shifting and changing body.

Michelle Shapiro 26:39

Yeah, you use another trigger word, healing journey, right? It's become co opted to also mean, again, you need to buy stuff forever. That's what a healing journey sounds like to me at this point. So in your beautiful Steph way, you've kind of divided, again, the experience you're having from the person that you are. So it's not that Steph is long covid forever. Steph experienced symptoms from long covid and as part of your bigger, huger, more beautiful life that is so much bigger than long covid could ever be, even though, man, can that thing absolutely destroy your quality of life. Oh, my goodness, it's about separating the identity of illness from our own identity, right? So this is a really good thing to talk about in this coming year, too. People self diagnosing with autism and ADHD with all these different medical conditions online. This has been a new thing where there's a beautiful part to this, which is that people who have felt historically like misunderstood and probably and possibly could have been misdiagnosed, are finally feeling like seen from that but having that diet, that self diagnosis, which is, you know, it's definitely not always accurate, but that's not the biggest problem with it. The biggest problem with it is it doesn't help to move the needle forward in whatever way that person wants to in their health. So having validation in what you're experiencing is very powerful, but it's not the whole thing. So then what's happening is people are saying, oh, I have ADHD. Then they're going to psychologists, and they're saying, no, you don't have ADHD. And then where are they? Then they have no solutions and no tools to move forward. So while I understand this new wave of self diagnosis being really strong, at the same time, boxing ourselves into these identities of illness also leaves us not many pathways to move forward. I really want people to focus more on the connections and oh, when I eat this, I might kind of feel this way, when I was in this really stressful period of time in life, this kind of stuff happens my body, and draw that timeline of their life and those connections, rather than getting stuck in diagnoses. And this is just something I'll share with you too. In Eastern medicine, in either TCM or Ayurveda, there really are no diagnoses, right? There's no like terms for those conditions. Yes, there's terms of the environment and what your body's in, your dosha, your constitution, and when your body moves in and out of different stages of it. But it's not like you just have one diagnosis, and that diagnosis is kind of yours, and you are that thing. It's very like USA to do this, like we all do this to us in the USA, to again, preoccupy and identify with things in order to feel validated, which has merit. But again, it doesn't take you any further than just that initial oh, this is great. I understand myself a little better now.

Stephanie Mara 29:37

Yeah, what that brings forth for me is just even the word validation. It's something that I work on a lot with those that I work with in how hard it is to validate ourselves, in how we feel and be like, no, this is real. I do feel this, this is actually happening. And I even get curious, just because there's wisdom in all of our behaviors and all of our reactions that to continue to search for being validated in a symptom, like, oh, I have this is, like, kind of a very maybe, like you said USA, way of finally feeling validated totally. And like, there's wisdom to that, but it kind of brings, like, some heaviness into my heart of just like how much we don't feel like we can feel valid in just feeling the way that we feel.

Michelle Shapiro 30:28

Well, we've been told that when it comes to medical diagnosis, the only way that what you feel is valid is if a doctor tells you it's valid. So when doctors repeatedly tell you it's not valid, you invalidate yourself. And that's what's happened a lot, and now I'm seeing that more because people are self diagnosing, and doctors really usually do not like when people do that, and then ego might kick in even stronger, and people are getting left out high and dry even more. But we do crave understanding ourselves so much, and I hope the way we can understand ourselves is by saying, like, you know, let's use long covid as an example too. Like, we both had long covid, right? Like, it's not even a question. However, there was not a time again where I said, oh, every day, on day 21 of my cycle, I feel really sick. Oh, it's the long covid. I'm like, wait, wait, why do we feel sick on day 21 of our cycle? What's going on here. It brings me to a place of curiosity, much more than that final stop. And I think again, I don't allow myself to be associated with diagnoses, because I also know the human body is dynamic, and every single person experiences those so differently. So I know some people are hearing this and going, but like Michelle, I want to self diagnose myself with ADHD. It made me feel good. I'm with it. I get it. Totally. Now what? Is my question.

Stephanie Mara 31:50

Yeah, it makes me think of just if we see like I hope that in 2025 self validation becomes a bigger thing. I don't know if I necessarily see that as a trend that is already happening, but certainly might be something that inspires me to put out more information on that, but also just the wisdom of the body. Coming back to what you were saying about TCM and Ayurveda, is that you know how they frame things, is there's just imbalances, and that those things can be brought into balance, not like you have this thing that's a problem that...

Michelle Shapiro 32:23

You have a permanent imbalance. Not possible. Yeah, exactly.

Stephanie Mara 32:27

Yeah, yeah. And surprisingly, one of the doctors that I saw on my healing, I was about to call it a healing journey, on my path, my life adventure through covid, was also a doctor from Yale that I was like, surprised that even he said this. And I was like, oh, maybe this is permeating somewhere in the medical community. He was like, you're gonna heal. Like, that's what your body wants to do.

Michelle Shapiro 32:51

I love that.

Stephanie Mara 32:52

You're gonna heal. Like, don't even worry about it. It's just taking longer than you want it to. And I was like, oh, and it tapped me back into and I wish that more doctors would maybe approach their clients in that way, that it's just like your body has wisdom, and what it wants to do is it wants to heal. That's what it wants to move towards, and to remind people of that, that that is what if you let your body lead. And I've been talking about it a lot of like somatic work, learning how to live from the inside out, rather than the outside in, and that if we learn to live more from the inside out, that like our body will naturally find balance. And just going back to what you're talking about is how much that awareness is taken away from all of the worlds of longevity and the scare tactics of like, what foods to eat or not eat, like it always gives us this impression that I have to control my body. I have to be the one that makes sure that my body is healthy, rather than that is something that my body already wants to be.

Michelle Shapiro 33:59

100% you know, when I first made Quiet the Diet, I thought, I don't know where I thought a slogan would come in, but I had a slogan which was mastering your health by listening to yourself, which has been just a huge part of the work that both of us do is it's not about us giving the answers to any of our clients or patients. It's about like, again, how many classes do you take on this Stephanie in psychology, it's so much more about the client or patient themselves coming up with these answers, but facilitating that knowledge that they already know, just pulling up what they already know to be true and what they know to help them, like coaching is about that facilitation process. Like, how do we pull from within the resources that we already know we have, but we subconsciously know we have, and we don't consciously know we have. How do we pull from that? And how do we pull from that pool of resources? My mindset again, around healing, around all these things, has always been and will always be, that no matter where someone is at, they can always feel better. So it doesn't mean physically, if you have a condition, like a terminal condition, for instance, that necessarily you can fix the condition. But what might you be able to do? Maybe fix a little bit how you feel about it, and fix a little bit what your symptoms are. You know, a lot of clients come to me and they're like, am I too far gone? And I'm like, never heard of it before. You know, my aunt got diagnosed with stage four brain cancer, glioblastoma. She's been alive four years with it, and she's doing really well. But when she got that diagnosis, I looked at her, and I was, I was like, I don't care if this doctor just said that you're gone in six months, because we're gonna do something and we're gonna make it better than it was. And we threw, you know, we have thrown everything we can into it, but there's no too far gone. There's no way you can't heal in some capacity. There's no way that you can't make your experience better. And that's a message that I am have become even stronger on. And this is where I I feel like, again, I'm becoming a little bit more like tough versus being like the very, very soft practitioner, because I think my clients need that from me. I think when we're feeling really low and you and I both of us have felt very sick in our lives, you need someone to be like, kind of like, I'm strong enough to hold you right now, and we have, like, friends and family that help us do that too. But from a practitioner standpoint, we're not actually holding anything, the person unfortunately has to experience it, but to know that someone is not afraid of their symptoms no matter what, like your doctor, who was like nah we're good, like, you're gonna get over this. I think that's so critical in that practitioner relationship that like we're tough enough, and you and I definitely are Steph, we're tough enough to hold that space for someone else, like I could be going through anything, and I will still be able to show up for someone much more than I can show up for myself, which is true for a lot of healers. I think, you know, I had this colleague who is just amazing, brilliant, and she is going through a fertility journey, and she was in a doctor's office, and the doctor started crying hysterically and saying, like, I'm so sorry about how bad the situation is, like you are basically, like you're screwed. And the practitioner was like, trying to express empathy by crying. And I was like, no, that's bullshit. I was like, she didn't try anything. She didn't implement any interventions yet. And also, who the heck wants someone crying to them about, you know, that's to me that's not empathy. That's like indulgent empathy. I would have wanted someone to say, I don't know what we can do, but we're going to do something. Let's see what we can do. I'm more in that space now, and I've become a little bit more, I don't want to use this phrase, a little bit more, like, buck up, you know, we're gonna do this than I was in the past. Because I'm realizing now that I'm seeing, especially with long covid, how much sicker people are. They need more of that, and we need more of a mirror of reflection on, are we experiencing the discomfort we need to experience? Are we doing that work? I've been a little bit tougher in that way, and I'm into it.

Stephanie Mara 38:01

Yeah. And, you know, there is an approach and a balance to everything that sometimes I will hear from some people that what they need is just to feel heard, and other times, what they need is like, I just need the steps, you know. And this goes back to meeting the individual in where they're at. And there are some people like you're talking about that, like they're maybe tired of being coddled, you know, of being just like, hey, let's just like, even some of the work that I do, let's just like, feel how hard this is.

Michelle Shapiro 38:37

We have to laugh at ourselves Stephanie, we are the mushiest of many practitioners in the world. Obviously.

Stephanie Mara 38:41

I know I have to laugh at sometimes my like, immense compassion that I bring of like, yeah, sometimes it's, you know what I don't want to just feel how hard this is. I also want to explore what are the steps that I can take. And that's why I find that every single person, and I actually just put out a post on this a week or two ago that's like, what kind of questions do you ask a practitioner when you are thinking about working with them. Because it also is a process of checking in with yourself and being like, where am I at? And what do I need right now? Do I need to be helped with more gentleness, and do I need to just be in a space that like holds me with I don't know, kindness, compassion and like lets me cry and doesn't like tell me what to do or give me steps. And then there's the person that's just like, you know what? I've been there. I've been holding space for myself. I know how I feel, and I don't feel like I'm where I want to be, and I'm still struggling with some things that I don't necessarily feel like I need to be struggling with anymore, and what steps do I need to take? And I want someone to kind of be that strong stance, to be like, hey, we've got this. Here's what we're going to explore. So I feel like there's a space for all approaches, and it's the person checking in with themselves and being like, oh, what do I need? Where am I at? And when you interview someone to potentially work with them, and that includes me, that includes you, that it's just like notice how you feel in your body when you talk to a practitioner. And do you feel a sense of resonance? Do you feel a sense of hope? Does your body light up? Do you notice a relaxation response? Because that may be the person that you need to work with at this point where you are.

Michelle Shapiro 39:35

And it's gonna vary based on personality types, right? There's times, I mean, again, it's funny, because I am so gentle with my clients, like when I'm saying, buck up, Steph, you know what I mean?

Stephanie Mara 40:39

I absolutely know what you mean. You say buck up in the most kindest way possible.

Michelle Shapiro 40:44

Like we're gonna buck up together. You know what I mean? It's not like bootstrap it's like, come on, buck up, kiddo. You know, we're gonna do this in like a 1920s New York come on, kiddo, buck up, more like that. You know.

Stephanie Mara 40:54

I have also just to name, because I have worked with in my own life, so many different therapists I have literally worked with, therapists in the past that are like, feel it, Stephanie, like, you just need to, like, feel it. Can we just feel it right now? Just like, okay.

Michelle Shapiro 41:12

I hate this session, but I needed it so bad. I hated it, though, exactly.

Stephanie Mara 41:16

Right. Like, I don't want to feel this, but like, yeah, I need someone sometimes to, like, put their foot down and say, yeah, we're gonna feel this right now. I know you don't want to, but can we spend a second here just doing it? So when you talk about, buck up, that's how I hear it, where it's like, I am here to hold this strong firm stance for you, that you can do this, and I'm going to be here for you in this, because I find that the work that both you and I do is we are leading people a little bit into discomfort, and you need to have another person's body there that's like, I got you in this, like you are going to be safe going into this unknown, because I'm going to be there with you. So that's what I hear when you describe this, not this kind of, like, authoritarian...

Michelle Shapiro 42:03

Yeah, exactly like, no, it's like, you know, like, fitness bro, like, you got to calories in calories out, no nothing like that. Exactly. A lot of impressions today. But exactly right, you know, when I think about my personality with practitioners, I know myself pretty well, of course, like, I do a lot of self work, and I just have a very since I'm like a kid, I have the same personality, so it's like, easy to know me because I'm knowable. I think quite knowable. But when I go to practitioners, I'm really looking for someone who's like, I would really not want someone to just be like, I'm so sorry for what you're going through. There is a way to be compassionate without coddling people, I don't think anyone wants to be coddled, or maybe like our baser instincts are to want to be coddled, but I don't think coddling helps people. So I think even being compassionate usually does not include coddling. Actually, I think they are counter to each other versus one being the other. Now my definition of coddling, again, is not telling someone something they need to hear in order to favor avoiding conflict. Essentially, it's giving someone what they want, not what they need. But again, you can be deeply compassionate and empathetic while still giving someone what they want and need. And I think that's my goal. And I went to a doctor recently, like, for just like, a checkup, you know, I have MCAS, I have hypermobility, I have pots, I have these conditions. And so the doctor, like, really didn't know about the conditions, but was totally cool about it. And he was like, yeah, okay, here's the 10 things we're gonna do. Got it all right, you got the mast cell thing, whatever. Got it. Here's 10 things. Go do these appointments, and you know, that'll be your thing for the year. Go check these things out. And for me, he still heard me and gave me that, like, this is what we're doing, and that guidance and strength without being like, oh my gosh, you have hypermobility and MCAS, all these letters and pots, all these, I can't believe it. He was like, alright, great. This is what we're doing. I don't know much about it, but I'll find out, essentially, you know, and that's one of the most powerful things a practitioner can say, is, I don't know, but I'll find out. And to me, that's real compassion and honesty, and I don't like that again, the coddling I'm getting further and further away from when I was first in my career. I was very like, you can lose weight and be body positive at the same exact time. And now I'm like, we're gonna have to do a lot of work in both areas before we do one or the other, we have to make sure we're doing it in the right order. But there's a lot more nuance than that. And I think a lot of people who want to lose weight will go to Intuitive Eating practitioners and still secretly kind of want to lose weight, and they're like, weight loss is not a goal. But sometimes when people eat intuitively, there's a side effect that weight loss happens. And to me, it's just not truthful. So that's, I think, a big thing I'm seeking toward the world in 2025 is like honesty, honesty when it comes to the food dye conversation before, if you stop eating food dyes, you're not going to heal any chronic illness. So you might not add to your load, but if you're already sick, taking something out of your diet is not going to heal you. So like, that's not truthful, and it's not real. And that's, I think, what I'm really wanting to see more of is that truth, even if it's not easy to hear, but it's still really compassionate.

Stephanie Mara 45:19

Yeah, I think that's what I hope to see more of in this next year is what I saw in 2024 was potentially because people are starting to notice where the gaps are and to try to fill in what we've been seeing in the functional medicine world, in the intuitive eating world. And so we're like, okay, there's a lot of gaps in these things that have gotten really popular, and we need to start to address the gaps that are here, is that now because it takes time for, like, new movements to start and get going and to fill in those gaps, that it leaves potentially people feeling really, really confused, like I know I've had a lot of conversations that I've been in of people feeling immense shame for is it okay that I want to lose weight, or is it okay that I don't want to stop eating this hyperpalatable food that brings me so much joy, you know? Like, is it okay that I want to, you know, like, lift weights and like, want to shape my body in a certain way. So there's just a lot of confusion around what all of even what you just listed. What is body positivity? What does it really actually mean to want to lose weight? What does it mean to eat organic? Like what does that even mean?

Michelle Shapiro 46:36

It's all these random terms, right? They don't mean, nothing means anything that we see on social media. Again, endocrine disruptors, like liver detox, these are now becoming just random terms, cortisol. These are just random terms that people are using and generally have no meaning outside of what the context of social media is. But more importantly, they have no meaning in a person's real life. So like people saying, like, oh, you know, my cortisol is really high right now. I'm like, you're using a word that you've heard to describe something, but it's taking them away from the actual experience they're having, which is the whole goal of what we want people to do. Instead saying, hey, my hands are shaking. I'm extremely anxious. My thoughts are racing. That gives you more information than immediately associating with a random term that we've heard on the internet or associating with and I have clients come to me a lot with this, like, I have high cortisol, and I'm like, I have no idea if you have high cortisol, by the way. I have no testing to know that. And low cortisol and high cortisol symptoms can look the same, so I don't know if it's low or high cortisol, and I don't know what it is at any given time in the day, I would have to guess, and we don't want to guess. But then when someone comes in, they're like, I am a high cortisol person, and I'm like, none of that is going to help you. Again. Only care about what's going to help someone. So when we associate with these terms we disassociate from ourselves. So I want people to use again, you know, this is Steph world. We're in the somatic world. What do you feel in your actual body? Not I feel cortisol. I feel what's the experience going on inside of your body?

Stephanie Mara 48:15

Yeah, and all of the lists of if you experience this, this is what this means. Like, you could probably compile all of those lists and they would be overlapping and it could mean you have this, you have this, you have this, you have this. The lists are fairly usually similar, but it's very alluring of like, oh, maybe there's, going back to that validation, a way to validate what I'm feeling. And there's like, oh, I need to do a parasite cleanse. Oh, I have ADHD. Oh, like...great face

Michelle Shapiro 48:44

I shuddered when you said parasite cleanse...

Stephanie Mara 48:46

It got super popular this past year, like, just talking about cortisol. Like, did you see the trend of, like, the cortisol puffy face or whatever.

Michelle Shapiro 48:56

The cortisol face. Yeah.

Stephanie Mara 48:58

I hope that does not come back. There are so many reasons why your face may change in its shape from day to day.

Michelle Shapiro 49:08

That's why we got to give it to doctors, by the way, on this one, I gave it to doctors in a not nice way. I'm going to give it up for doctors in this way. You really can't diagnose medical diagnoses like that. It's just you have to have some sort of practitioner with a full understanding of your history, because two different things can look different for different reasons. Like, yeah, that cortisol face trend was so crazy. Because I don't actually think that that's why people's faces are swollen, by the way, and I think it's not a valid reason for any person, let alone for every person that's the reason that that's what's going on. I do see people get very wrapped up in these words and what is trending and I have never seen it help someone. What are they gonna do then? Like, eat cortisol reducing foods. Like, what is the game plan after that?

Stephanie Mara 49:54

Right. So going into what we're excited about, as much as I've been kind of apprehensive to people and telling people, hey, look out for this, if someone starts talking about a trauma diet, that does not exist. You know, if someone starts talking about, like, here are foods that you can eat to regulate your nervous system, there's not a ton of research on that. And I see people starting even like, people with like, a huge following, I'm not going to name who these people are, are starting to like, say, hey, if you, say there was a post that I saw a couple weeks ago I even wrote in the comments, of course, did not get a response back that was like, where was the where's the research for this? That was like, if you eat, you know, a certain kind of food, I'll be really vague about it, so if you eat a certain kind of food, like this is going to do this, this and this, it's going to help you move into your parasympathetic nervous system. And I was like, no, no. I've literally been scanning the research right now. And like that does not exist yet. And so I think that's one thing that I want people to be aware of, to be cautious about, because I see that one, the conversation around trauma and nervous system regulation that is only gonna grow in this next year.

Michelle Shapiro 51:09

Which we love! The conversation around it exactly. It's our biggest dream that that conversation would grow, and then also people are going to find ways to commodify it also, obviously, and that we've seen, like, yes, take my somatic shaking course, you know, take my nervous system regulation, tips, hacks, ice bath, course, you know, here's the five things you need. It's only $100,000 like, it's, yeah, that will happen. I love again, these tools, and I am excited again about health coaches. I am excited about people who are not registered dietitians or licensed therapists safely recommending things. But it should not be without basic understanding of how the nervous system functions and how it doesn't you'll know. You guys are really like everyone listening to this. If you're in you know, Stephanie's podcast world, I know you're like the smartest people ever. Like, literally, she has the smartest followers and listeners ever. Like, you guys know when it's not truthful.

Stephanie Mara 52:12

Yeah, yeah. So I'm excited that this is going to continue to grow. I'm excited that the field of somatics is continuing to grow and become more popular. And I do hope that more research comes out in these fields, like I even wrote in a paper recently, of like, we do need to do more research about how foods affect our nervous system, and how do we track that, and how do we actually discover the markers internally for that, so that if someone says, hey, if you eat this food, we actually do see that it does decrease sympathetic activation. Cool. That research doesn't necessarily exist yet, but I'm excited in going into the future of as this becomes more of been using the word like it's in the zeitgeist. It's just it's in there, like people are talking about trauma and nutrition and somatics, and how these things all tie together, and how people are filling in the gaps in all their own unique, different ways. And so I am excited that that is potentially going to continue to grow in awareness, that hopefully more research does occur where we can know where to start.

Michelle Shapiro 53:19

That's how it goes. If we keep screaming about it, then researchers are going to be like, there's money here. Let's do this. You know, that's that's usually how it goes. I will also say that when I'm looking at practitioners I trust for clients, I want you all to look at practitioners who speak to mechanism, as opposed to practitioners who just speak to one specific thing. What I mean by that is it would be valid to say that carbohydrates and glucose have calming effects on the nervous system. That's really not,you don't need a study to know that. It's just literally how the body works, right? We know that. Higher carb reduces cortisol output, really simple, like really easy, because there's sensors in our adrenal glands to also acknowledge when blood sugar gets too low. Insulin connects with cortisol. These things are mechanisms, right? So that would be valid to say, but to pick one specific food and say this specific food has more of an effect on the nervous system than other foods, you would need a study for. So grander, mechanistic ideas are awesome, I think, really helpful. Like, when people, when I say to people, for your nervous system to function properly, you probably need 130 grams of carbohydrates a day. People are like, oh my god, I can't eat that many carbs. I didn't even know, you know. So, like, when I see someone's in an anxiety zone, I'm like, you might need to increase your carbohydrates. Again, that's using science from mechanism perspective, as opposed to we're waiting for one specific study to drop, or making stuff up where no studies exist. So look at the people who understand the whole picture and are making very broad mechanism recommendations. Because honestly, for people who do have a lot of stress and anxiety, them eating enough carbohydrates is going to help them so much more than taking Ashwagandha or something like that. You know.

Stephanie Mara 55:09

Yeah. I'm curious if you are seeing any trends that you foresee in 2025 in the nutritionist, dietitian, functional medicine world, that might be what people should look out for more, and I hate using the word should, could be looking out for more.

Michelle Shapiro 55:27

So I'll tell you. My last concern is that for the longest time, food, diet programs, diet patterns, have been associated almost with like political groups, right? So like veganisms with hippies or something right, like liberals. You know, that's actually not true anymore, but it was historically true, like animal peace and all these things. I'm seeing a lot of not only people tying in diet with political groups, but now religious groups as well. So this deity wants me to eat this specific diet, and I don't mean a Seventh Day Adventist not consuming caffeine, or a Jewish person fasting on a holiday. I'm talking about a mini world on social media where people have made up and not related to biblical references or Quran references, but have assigned religious value to their diet patterns. And there's a couple that have been I've noticed, like breakouts with I don't want to mention the specific diets and religions so that anyone ever feels isolated or like they're being religiously persecuted in any capacity. But I am seeing that a lot, and I would really super duper caution on that for people, which is like, have your beautiful relationship with your religion, and absolutely don't tie random diets that have been made up a couple years ago into your relationship with religion. Because I can promise you, these diets are these, like branded, you know, purchasable diets are not the religious access point that they're being made out to be from a sales perspective.

Stephanie Mara 57:07

Yeah, yeah. And I know this is really hard to talk about in the world that we're living in now and the world that we will be living in next year. I know we both come from the same perspective of like, everyone is welcomed here, regardless of your political beliefs, your background, your religion, your whatever, fill in all of the blanks. You know, I even put out a thing in my stories that was just like, like I am, just pro human beings living their life.

Michelle Shapiro 57:38

We're global citizens.

Stephanie Mara 57:40

Right? In whatever feels best to them, and the most important thing is, can we respect each other? And so what I find, and I think what you're pointing to, is that what we're gonna see a lot more in 2025 and maybe something that I'm not necessarily excited about, but excited that it does give people like us more of an opportunity to speak up even more for each person's human rights and to tune into their body and know what's best for them is we're going to see nutrition politicized even more than maybe it ever has been before.

Michelle Shapiro 58:13

It already has been recently, as we know, because of the recent election. Obviously, yeah.

Stephanie Mara 58:17

Yes, and so I'm seeing it, and I feel like that's what you're pointing to, and it's hard to have this conversation, because I'm sure there's listeners who are pro or con whatever,

Michelle Shapiro 58:26

Yeah, they have every right to be, yeah.

Stephanie Mara 58:29

Yeah. You can have whatever beliefs you want to have, but when we're talking about just this field of taking care of your body, of conversations around food, it already has been so complicated with diet culture, that it might even start to feel even more complicated, because some individuals out there might feel even more bolstered to create more conflict or to kind of put out thoughts that they've always had, that they felt like maybe they didn't feel comfortable in sharing, and now they are feeling more comfortable...

Michelle Shapiro 59:00

I have seen a lot of that are you seeing that too?

Stephanie Mara 59:02

I have and it's really sometimes surprising and shocking, and I have to sit with myself in that of like, oh, okay, like, I didn't know that that person aligned with this, and kind of take that mirror back to myself of what does that bring up within me? So I find that this is constant work, and we're going to have to look out for this even more in this next year of when you see someone create really clear dogma, or saying, this is the way that our health system needs to be, or how everyone should be eating, just to even take that pause and tune into yourself of like, how does it feel in my body to be reading this and like view it with, you know, a grain of salt that what they're saying isn't necessarily true or false, and just saying, like, how does this feel to me? And is this information that resonates with me, or does it actually produce more anxiety? And more fear in my body. Because, as we even started with, if this goes back to the basics of, even, just like, I find that the basics of my work is feeling safe to exist in your body. And like, if this goes back to the basics of, like, how do I take care of being a human being in this body, that if you are following people that don't facilitate that safety, or even your posts cultivate curiosity and are thought provoking and make you kind of like, take that mirror back to yourself and be like, Huh? Yeah, let me think about that. You might start unfollowing some people or muting some people and really being very, very clear in your social media boundaries around what kind of information you're taking in.

Michelle Shapiro 1:00:41

Yeah, I think it's been a grieving. I think that also the, you know, the world would love for us to be very divided and polarized, and so this is not a call for people to ever judge someone for their political beliefs. Feel more alienated. That's the last thing we want people to do. But we also have to feel safe, you have to feel right with it, because then, without us realizing, if you're on someone's page who kind of doesn't feel right, that's igniting a biological reaction within you. And I'm not saying it's like a dangerous biological reaction, but cumulatively, it creates more feelings of isolation, which we know are super dangerous for our health. So I think I don't want to be in an echo chamber of the same people who think the same as me at all. I want to learn from people who think the opposite of me. But I also want to be around people who are willing to have those conversations, who are willing I have clients and friends on every single side of the political spectrum. It's not even I mean, as far as you know, they go on either side, and as long as I can have productive and loving conversations with them, they're really welcomed in. But I saw a lot also stuff like this is just important to talk about. Like it was so much polarization. It was really upsetting to see, and I think we need to be protective of ourselves without isolating ourselves during this time. So being eager to learn someone else's perspective while still, when the line needs to be drawn for self protection, the line is drawn for self protection.

Stephanie Mara 1:02:09

Yeah, and what you're pointing to, even as we like, again, I feel like we could talk for hours and hours so even as we maybe like go towards wrapping up what I hear you pointing to is how important also, in this next year, community is going to be, and you know, I have been pointing that out also in my posts a lot more lately. Just like, find people you feel safe with. Do not isolate yourself. Do not put yourself into a silo. Like, find communities, people, groups, free groups, podcasts, people that feel like they send the message to your body of, I'm safe to exist here, and I'm safe to be inside of my body and to feel how I feel. And there's people who are going to show up for me and be like, I've got you, and we're going to explore all these different things on your journey that you're on, and like just finding people that support you in like feeling safe, even to wake up in the morning and like you are safe to be here in this world.

Michelle Shapiro 1:03:06

Absolutely, yeah. And safe also is a word that's been co-opted on social media now too. I would say even if safe means neutral, where it doesn't have it has a non net negative reaction for you, that's probably a good starting place. But the function of many different forces in the world is to keep us isolated, and it is our greatest burden to stay connected in that environment. And I don't mean forces, like intentional forces. I mean like social like, literally, we live in houses, in cities, you know, we live isolated from other people. I don't mean like again, forces that be, but there are so many advances that have happened that have kept us very disconnected and really like, not human. And it needs to be our constant effort if we do not try really hard to connect and really hard to be human, even though we're exhausted and sick, and it really stinks, we will be disconnected. So we have to do this. This is see, this is this is the tough side of me that I was telling you guys about. Yeah, we have to.

Stephanie Mara 1:04:10

It's loving toughness.

Michelle Shapiro 1:04:12

It is, but it's even tough for you know, for me, it's like, that's harsh, but we have to, and we have to stay connected and being with people who you feel are not like you and don't get you as a person can be more isolating than being alone. So really, just be around the people who make you feel really good, and it could be challenging you, and that can make you feel good too. It doesn't have to be they think the same as you, but people who are open to you and receptive to you, and who you literally like being around. I think that is the biggest health message. And I am seeing a lot of people who maybe were for years posting, oh, you should take the supplement, are now being like, oh no, go walk outside, go touch grass, like that. I am seeing a lot of people rolling back around. And that's, I guess, the biggest thing I'm excited about is I'm just seeing a lot of growth in those ways as we see people getting more sick and more isolated, I'm seeing a lot of healers stepping up to the plate, and I welcome every single one of them. I'm like, come on, and we all need the most support.

Stephanie Mara 1:05:11

Yeah. So well said. And I just like, love you. Love your presence. Like, thank you so much for being here and having this conversation. Because I feel like it is important sometimes to zoom out and be like, here's what we're seeing, and then zoom back in of like, okay, here's what I'm living in. Like, here is literally the environment, the, you know, society, the culture that I'm living in here, how it is maybe affecting me. And now, how could I zoom back into like, what do I need? And I appreciate you naming that like, the experience of safety is probably going to continue to be co-opted, because it also is a trend of, like, the whole with nervous system regulation. How do we see you feel safe? And I've been even exploring of like, can safety also be I feel safe in discomfort? You know, safety is way more than just, I feel good, and that's what safety is. It's like literally knowing that you are safe to exist in any state, in any emotion, in any experience. And so, yeah, you know, we have to, kind of like, zoom back in of like, okay, how can I facilitate that for myself? And that can include the practitioners that you work with like, you know, the environments that you surround yourself in, the people that you are interacting with like, and that comes back to tracking yourself of like, okay, what helps me be here? So I just thank you for having this conversation today. It was really important. And as always, how can people keep in touch with you and all the amazing things that you do in the world.

Michelle Shapiro 1:06:41

Stephanie's binge eating episode on Quiet the Diet. It's episode, I literally think three of Quiet the Diet, by the way, it was like one of the OG episodes. Thank you for having me on and it's always a delight. And I never know where we're gonna go in any conversation. And I love where we end up. You can find me on Instagram. michelleshapirord. There, if you wanted to work one on one with one of our practitioners, there's an application right in the bio, and then also my podcast, Quiet the Diet.

Stephanie Mara 1:07:07

Yeah. and I absolutely recommend following you. I have even like, people who've contacted me and I'm like, oh, that's not exactly the work that I do. I always refer them to you, you know, I just so appreciate you, and thanks again for being here and for everyone listening as always, if you have any questions, I will leave both of our contacts in the show notes, so reach out anytime, and I hope you all have a satiating and safety producing rest of your day. Bye!

Keep in touch with Michelle here:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michelleshapirord/

Website: https://michelleshapirord.com/

Podcast: https://www.quietthediet.com/podcast