Navigating, Processing, and Shining a Light on Shame When Healing from Disordered Eating

Welcome to The Satiated Podcast where we explore physical and emotional hunger, satiation, and healing your relationship with your food and body. I'm your host Stephanie Mara Fox your Somatic Nutritional Counselor. I’ve been looking forward to connecting with Natalie Rose Allen. Natalie is a Registered Psychotherapist specializing in disordered eating, eating disorders and body image. She helps her clients shift their mindset from dieting and restriction to balance and abundance by encouraging self-care strategies that support their emotional, psychological and physical well-being. She believes our relationship with food is inextricably linked to our emotional experience and self-identity and that true health is not measured by food rules or the number on the scale, and is more accurately reflected by how we feel mentally, emotionally, socially, physically and spiritually. Welcome Natalie!

Natalie Rose 01:01

Hi Stephanie, thank you so much for having me.

Stephanie Mara 01:03

Yeah, I'm thrilled to have you on the podcast today, and would love to hear more about your background and how you first got into this work. And, you know, I know with what I've seen you put out on social media, you're really passionate about this work, and you know, have your own history of healing as well.

Natalie Rose 01:22

So mine is kind of a long story, but I'll try to make it as short as possible. I didn't even realize it's kind of funny thinking about how I landed in this space, because there's so many signs that it was meant to be, but I just kind of got lost along the way. But I would say it started when, so I had had my own experience with dieting and body image and disordered eating and what probably was an eating disorder, but just sort of was overlooked and never really noticeable to other people. So I started dieting when I was 13, or 14, and was at the time, you know, was experiencing a lot of tension at home, my parents were going through a separation, I was going to a new high school where I didn't know anyone. So I felt a lot of pressure to look a certain way because I guess I had learned that that was a way that you'd connect with other people. And I'd also experienced difficulties with friendships before and some, you know, experiences where people were not so nice about the way that I looked. So I already had kind of an insecurity there. And I basically got stuck in this cycle of dieting and binge eating, because although I did end up losing a lot of weight and experiencing a new body that was then reinforced by the validation of other people, you know, restriction never lasts, either goes to binge eating, or, unfortunately, sometimes to death. So my body was really trying to keep me safe. But I didn't know that. So I became very upset with my body. And you know, why couldn't I just get this eating thing, right. And so that cycle played out for a few years. And binge eating also became a way that I would cope with my emotions, because I didn't really know anything about what was actually going on inside of me, what I felt, what I was needing in my experiences. So it became a coping mechanism for many years. And eventually, I sort of got to a point where after I'd experienced certain things like my mom passed away, and that led me into seeing my first therapist, and I found that when I started developing this awareness about my emotions, and how my experiences had affected me, and how to process those things, I actually felt less of a need to rely on these like disordered eating behaviors. So with the binge eating sort of almost stopped on its own. I was eating a bit more balanced as well at that time. But I discovered that becoming in touch with my emotions and learning how to process them really helped me achieve that balance over my eating patterns. And so at that time, I had graduated from university in majoring in psychology, and I was working, fortunate to be working in an office and meeting with people and doing assessments and learning all these great things, which also helped my confidence and self esteem, which also helped my reduced reliance on eating and dieting, and I decided to go into my masters and when I was in my masters, I was I started a blog where I was blogging about my daily breakfast and talking about how I had stopped dieting, and I was learning to just eat in a more balanced way. And I was really appreciative of this newfound freedom with being able to eat and fuel my body as opposed to my old mindset of restriction and punishing my body. And as I was blogging on Instagram, I was attracting a lot of other people who were experiencing the same thing or who had experienced the same thing. And it just grew into this amazing community where I've connected with so many amazing people. And so as I was doing my masters to become a psychotherapist, I thought, why not specialize in disordered eating and turn my passion into my career. And so through that, I decided to get specific training in eating disorders. I was working with a supervisor for a long time, and I still work with an amazing team of psychologists and psychotherapists and dieticians who specialize in eating disorders while maintaining my private practice through Instagram, @wakeupandsmelltherosay. It's just funny how it all came together because I remember in elementary school, you know, we had to write speeches every year and one year I decided to write a speech on eating disorders. And I was saying, you know, they're not all about food. Like there's, there's anxiety happening and there's this and that and I was so young, and didn't even realize that I too, would eventually experience disordered eating or eating disorder, and then eventually overcome it and learn to help people through theirs as well.

Stephanie Mara 06:21

Yeah, thanks for sharing all that. Something that you beautifully named is how the binge eating just kind of went away as this other healings started to occur. And I find the same exact thing, both within my journey, and those that I work with is that there's often this isn't there a quick fix? Isn't there just something I'm supposed to do? But it's really as this other healing, that has nothing to do with the food, starts to occur the binge eating does just, it feels magical although it's not, but it does just magically go away.

Natalie Rose 06:57

Totally. And it makes so much sense as well, when you look at it as binge eating is this way of regulating a dysregulated nervous system. So when you finally are able to put meaning to your experiences, to put words to your feelings, you feel more of that sense of safety inside, it's kind of like you can kind of let go of things, things make sense, that you don't have that sense of like panic and urgency anymore, or hopelessness or whatever it was that really was driving the binge eating.

Stephanie Mara 07:30

Yeah, and I find that on that journey, there can be so much shame. You know, so many individuals think that it's my fault, I should have more willpower. I should have figured this out by now. And I'm curious about how you've approached the topic of shame with those that you've worked with. And even on your own journey, how was shame supported in processing that through your own system.

Natalie Rose 07:54

I think it's really important to really understand how the shame developed, because shame itself is a coping mechanism, well the kind of shame that we're talking about, like the toxic shame, we know there's healthy shame, which is you accidentally say something the wrong way, hurt your friend's feelings, and you feel shame about it and it motivates you to apologize and to you know, self reflect and, and you know, maybe think of a different way to say it next time as an example. Toxic shame is like when oh my god, like you make the slightest mistake, and you're a terrible person, and you spiral into this really dark, hopeless place. And that I find is really, really common with eating disorders. And it's really something that develops privately and behind the, you know, you're not really conscious of it. And it develops when we were really young through our experiences, you know, if I share some of my own story, like I had really loving parents who cared about me a lot, and yet, I still developed a lot of shame, because I think that I needed a lot more maybe emotional support than what I received. And it's not that they didn't try to support me or would have liked to support me in that way. And but perhaps they didn't know how just based on their own capacity for emotion regulation or communication. So I think that I internalized that as like, okay, well, I'm not being seen and heard the way I need to, I must not be worthy of being seen and heard. And then, you know, maybe some difficulty making friends like being shy and just not being able to make friends as easily as other people. You know, I might then internalize that as well. Maybe I'm not worthy if making friends or there's something wrong with me. And then that becomes kind of like this filter through which you see the world and so other experiences get filtered through that and it's like, okay, well, I didn't get that job because I'm not smart enough or not good enough. And all of these things kind of compile into this toxic shame. And that makes us really vulnerable for eating disorders because we might then use behaviors to change our physical appearance in a way that maybe makes us feel more acceptable. It's also eating disorder behaviors are also a way of regulating the feeling of shame, like those dark, uncomfortable feelings. So if I'm binging in front of the TV, I'm not done having to think about how shameful I feel for having no plans on a Friday night or something like that. So it just, I think, just really understanding where shame comes from, and how it's showing up in your daily life and how it's probably triggering those eating disorder behaviors, our awareness is really key.

Stephanie Mara 10:44

Oh I agree with literally everything that you just said. And I appreciate you naming the difference between kind of a healthy expression of shame, and this toxic shame that often shows up when someone is navigating disordered eating, an eating disorder. And yeah, there were so many layers that you just went into, about how it starts to shape our experience of ourselves where it becomes more of an identity instead of oh, this is just an experience that I'm having right now. And you named nervous system dysregulation earlier, which we talk a lot about here on this podcast, that even that experience of oh, this is part of my identity. And when you do something that is considered as bad or wrong, or yeah, even if you just have an emotion like that is even experienced as bad or wrong to even have a human emotional experience that it further dysregulates the body that then you lean on the food and body coping mechanisms even more.

Natalie Rose 11:42

Yeah, exactly.

Stephanie Mara 11:44

Yeah. So what have you seen when someone is starting to explore their relationship with food more, and they tap into this sense of shame, I find that it's even surprising for some individuals, like they didn't even know it was there, and I'm curious, when you get to that point with those that you've worked with, what have you found be supportive to start to be with the experience of shame.

Natalie Rose 12:05

Definitely, self compassion is huge, like really understanding that, A, this is a universal experience, you know, I think shame can feel so isolating. So by allowing the person to really remind themselves that no matter what they're feeling, whether it's a certain emotion, or an experience, or the shame itself, they're not the only one with that are experiencing that the other part of it is really creating space between their thoughts and feelings and what they feel like doing. Because, you know, when we're stuck in shame, or when we don't have that awareness, you know, we really are one with the shame, like we are the shame, and we just do what is feels comfortable and comforting in that moment, but really reinforces the shame. And then really taking a step back and asking, what do I actually need in this moment? Or what have I needed to hear in my shame story, you know, usually there's like a particular story. It's like, I wasn't good enough, or I was made to feel like I was too much. And so is that coming up in this moment? And what is something that you've always needed to hear in those moments?

Stephanie Mara 13:18

Yeah, yeah, oftentimes, that experience of shame, like you were pointing to before starts so young, that oftentimes, it's not necessarily easier, but it makes more sense to us at a young age to abandon ourselves to make sure that we are going to be held and taken care of, and I appreciate that you brought up also, there's so much that is put on parents, that it's just like, oh, you didn't get what you needed from your parents. And also sometimes, like you named, you could have had a beautiful relationship with your parents, they could have showed up the best that they possibly could and it still could have potentially been not what you needed. And so this experience of shame shows up that it's like, okay, I'll just change who I am to fit what they need. And that was a really wise strategy at that time of your life. And so I find that even it's kind of going back to those situations and saying, okay, yes, your parents did the best they possibly could at that moment when you were really upset. And like you said, what could you have needed, heard, been held? You know, how would that, if you had always gotten that, how would that have changed how you would be responding to yourself now?

Natalie Rose 14:29

Validation. That's really the one thing that we all really need in those moments when we're struggling and no one can understand why, you know, we don't always need the other person to understand why, we just need to be told that it's okay to be feeling that way and I'm here for you and like, we'll work this through together or I'll be here for you until this big feeling passes eventually, which it will. And I think going back to the parents thing, you know that I work with a lot of parents as well and I never want them to feel like it's their fault or being blamed. And honestly, a lot of people who develop eating disorders or who are at risk are what we call super feelers, meaning they're just have just been born to be extra sensitive to things, they might feel things more intensely than the average person, they might notice things more or differently than the average person. So these things can make them vulnerable to being hypercritical of their body. For example, if they're noticing differences, or changes, or shifts, that, you know, the average person doesn't see or notice, or when they're perceiving other people's cues, they might be extra sensitive to those and then creating the stories about what those cues mean. I know for myself, like I've always been sensitive to noises and people's expressions changing. So you know, just that can create a lot of conflict or confusion or discomfort. And you know, when other people don't really understand that, and you don't know how to communicate that to other people, it's kind of just like building up inside of you. And you just find ways to either numb or suppress it or react to it.

Stephanie Mara 16:18

Yeah, food is such a great resource to numb out from it. And like you were saying early on, starting to experience these behaviors as the best strategy. That's kind of how I like to think of it just the best strategy that you had at that time. So you know, that kind of starts to decrease the shame a little bit, just to kind of normalize that you weren't doing anything wrong or bad or like abnormal, that it's like, okay, this was the best tool you had in your toolbox at that age. And I'm so glad that you brought up this also super feelers experience, I think that is something that has come out in the eating disorder, disordered eating world more and more of being called, like a highly sensitive person, you know, at a young age that can be misinterpreted as there's something wrong with me if especially you're not around individuals who understand that sensitivity can be a superpower. And it's not that there's anything wrong with you. It's just something you were born with. And I know that was a huge piece for myself, is absolutely can claim I'm definitely a super feeler and you know, having to learn the language of my body to say, okay, how do I describe this to myself so that I can talk about it to others, so that it doesn't feel so overwhelming inside of my own body, and that it starts to make sense, you know, and then the food isn't needed as much to kind of step in and help you because you start being able to identify, oh, this is how I'm feeling, it's okay to feel this way, and now I can describe it to other people, too, so that then they can show up for me in navigating this in a different way.

Natalie Rose 18:02

Exactly, exactly. It's, you know, learning how to communicate what we're feeling and ask for what we need. And set boundaries, you know, is also a huge part and really building that sense. It's agency in the world and in control because we can now navigate these situations, we have the tools, and so we're less likely to fall back on, yeah, sort of this numbing tools, like you know, restriction can be numbing, binging can be numbing, purging obviously is just a way of sort of getting rid of all these feelings. So yeah, it's huge. Just being able to understand what's going on in our bodies and validate ourselves and ask us what we really need to do.

Stephanie Mara 18:46

Yeah, what have you seen, because it's such a process to start to come into contact with emotions and that's kind of what we're pointing to here is that just a huge part of the healing process is starting to become more comfortable with your emotional body and being connection with it, what have you found that process look like, for those that you've worked with? Or, you know, within yourself that you know, as you're starting to realize, okay, I'm just a super feeler and starting to like touch on that, what have you seen unfold?

Natalie Rose 19:17

I've seen a lot of aha moments, like you said before about clients, not really knowing that they were even experiencing shame and just realizing that that was actually what they were feeling in those moments before they, you know, reacted a certain way and connecting that to a core belief. I think it looks different for everyone. Some people are very much aware of the shame that they have been experiencing, they can identify its shame, but just don't know like, okay, what do I do with that now? So then we start talking about processing it and you know, how can we sort of shift that shame into like a healthy anger or some healthy boundaries or or maybe it's grief or sadness. And I think the process really is different. The length of time is different for each client as well, like some clients can sort of navigate it more easily, a lot are more sort of wired without avoidance, like, just, you know, avoiding emotions like the plague, it can be really challenging when when you have sort of been able to avoid these feelings for a long time, and then come into contact with them. But it can also just be really empowering, understanding why what this emotion means and what it's actually guiding you to do, rather than just sort of push it away can can be really empowering.

Stephanie Mara 20:40

Yeah, you actually just named something really important of oftentimes, this shame is covering up potentially other emotions that have felt unsafe to feel like the experience of anger, like the experience of sadness, you know, depending upon how you were met and seen in this emotional experience from a young age, not only from your parents, but from your family at large, your siblings, your teachers, the culture, your friends, you know, you cultivated beliefs from a young age of these emotions either are safe for me to feel or unsafe for me to feel. And I'm really glad that you named that that it's then starting that process of how do we start to kind of like, very slowly dip a toe into like, slowly feeling anger in a space that feels like, okay, it's okay for me to start feeling this. And I find that individuals, they're like, okay, I just have to feel all the anger. And it's like, no, no, no, you wanna just be like, what's like one tiny moment where maybe like, you stubbed your toe and got really angry at that, where it feels like a manageable experience to sit with that and then grow from there. Have you noticed that?

Natalie Rose 21:52

Definitely, yeah, definitely. You know, a lot of the time when we experience an eating disorder, or disordered eating, or just nervous system dysregulation, we have that all or nothing thinking, and we're sort of swinging between two extremes. So it makes total sense that, you know, if you haven't been able to express your emotions, and you sort of feel like, okay, now I'm going to lose control of them altogether. So yeah, it really is about finding that that middle ground, or I practice with a lot of DBT, so wise mind, like, okay, validate that that's how you feel and how can you express that or cope with that in a way that aligns with your values as well? And how can you get into wise mind by taking a step back and just grounding yourself?

Stephanie Mara 22:39

Yeah. Thanks for naming that. Could you explain more for anyone who doesn't know what wise mind is, like what is that? And how does someone cultivate that?

Natalie Rose 22:49

Definitely. So we have these three states in mind and our emotion mind, our actions are largely driven by emotion and impulse. This is like our hot mind. So this is like having road rage, kind of like, you know, picture yourself just driving on the highway, like skipping past cars, just reckless. Sometimes, that's how it feels in our body in other situations, as well. Sometimes that can mean losing control of all or losing all logic, you know. And when we're in that state of mind, we really don't have access to a lot of logic, we're not thinking rationally, it can actually be very protective as well. So we're in emotion mind when we're walking across the street, and a car comes towards us, and we, you know, get nervous, we get scared, and we jump out of the way, right, like, that's our brain is basically running on survival, it's helping us survive that way. So the other end of the spectrum is our logic mind. So this is when our decisions are largely controlled by logic and reason. And this isn't necessarily a bad thing. You know, this is like, if we're following the steps, so we're following the directions to get to somewhere on a map, you know, there's not really a lot of emotion involved. We're just step by step and we get to our destination. Sometimes it can be unhelpful, if say, we are looking for a boyfriend and you know, we have this checklist of qualities we want. We go on a date, and he checks off all the boxes, but we feel no emotional connection to him or no warmth and we ended up choosing him as a boyfriend, we're going to be missing something. It's not, we're not going to be satisfied. We're sort of doing what we think we should be doing, but not living through our values. And so wise mind is when we connect both of them, we want to be able to embrace our emotions, the pleasant ones and the unpleasant ones because we realize that they all give us access to certain needs, but we also have certain values and ways that we want to be living, you know, treating others with respect, treating ourselves with respect, maybe being compassionate, evaluating family, health, whatever it is. So we want to make logical decisions that help us reach or aligned with our values. So sometimes getting into wise mind can be grounding. So taking a few deep breaths when you notice that you're activated, or you're experiencing a conflict, and you don't want to react, it might be like, you know, putting a hand on your chest and actually asking yourself like, is this wise mind? You know, what is my intuition telling me because wise mind is basically your intuition. It might be having a conversation with a friend or a counselor or a therapist, you know, sometimes just speaking, getting our thoughts out and talking about our emotions can help us get into a wise mind perspective. Yeah. So that's basically the gist of our three states of mind and in wise mind.

Stephanie Mara 25:43

Yeah. Thanks for going into more detail with that. I'm really hearing even within that, that, okay, if we placed like disordered eating, eating disorder behaviors in these minds, sometimes bringing in logical mind, for example, if you don't feel like wise mind can come online quite yet. might be helpful, where it's like, okay, you know, if I eat this much food right now, is that going to leave me feeling the way I want to feel, you know, kind of slowing it down to bring that rational, logical part of us online that it's like, what am I really looking for here? So that then what I find is the more kind of, and I'm hearing, like, there's regulation within all of this as well, the more regulated and connected we feel to what is just showing up, then I'm curious if you've noticed, like, wise mind can come kind of online more, because it's like, okay, I now can balance both of these parts of me to really slow down and reflect on what's coming up for me and what's needed right now.

Natalie Rose 26:46

Definitely. Yeah, and even if you think about obsessive calorie counting, right, that person is, is really in their logic mind. You know, you're following the rules you're calculating, that's, that's a lot of logic mind right there. And maybe binge eating would be emotion mind, you know, you're just sort of overwhelmed with emotion and wise mind might be in binge eating often results from calorie counting, right? Like, if you go over sort of triggers you into the opposite end of the spectrum. So wise mind might be, okay, how can I get what I need, and also what I want, you know, I get my nutrients in, I feel like I'm doing good things for my body, and I also want the satisfaction from, you know, this cookie or these chocolates, or whatever, and add that in. That's kind of an example of how I might use wise mind, you know, when we're talking about food.

Stephanie Mara 27:44

Yeah, yeah. And it's such a process. Ya know, it really takes time to identify what's showing up. And I find that there's, again, going back to that shame of when you're on this healing journey, you like learn the concept, and then it's like, shouldn't I just enact this already? I get it. Now I'm aware of it, shouldn't this just stop and change? And I find that it takes longer than you think it's going to, to practice over and over and over and over again, and even to, like, expand out the timeline. Have you experienced that as well, that it's like, usually, people will maybe come in with this very short timeline, and that it sometimes has to take years of practice to really feel like some of the things that we're describing here are integrated.

Natalie Rose 28:33

Definitely. And it's so tough when a client has a budget or sort of like a short term, you know, only access to short term work with me. And I never want to discourage people by telling them that, you know, this is a process that's going to take a long time, because it does, and I think that you know, therapy can be helpful, no matter what, you know, it's always, either you're planting the seed, or you're watering it at a different part and you're going to sort of try different things at different times. But yeah, definitely. It's it's just something that takes a lot of time, and patience and self compassion. And I repeat that through my posts a lot, because I really want people to recognize that they're not failing. They're just going through the process. This is part of the process.

Stephanie Mara 29:21

Yeah, yeah. You know, what do you feel like for those that are listening, and you know, even I know there are a lot of practitioners that listen to this podcast as well, that we can start to decrease the shame and the stigma that's around because I have seen shame and stigma around eating disorders decrease dramatically over like the past decade that I've also been in this field, and it's still a little bit there. You know, I find that a lot of individuals come to me saying that they literally have not told anyone about their eating behaviors ever, like their family, their friends, their close intimate relationship have no idea what they're navigating. And so there's still this stigma that you know, navigating your life's hardships with your relationship with food is wrong or bad, or something that you're supposed to hide.

Natalie Rose 30:12

Yeah, I think eating disorders are a lot more common than we think about. So it's kind of, you know, it sucks that there's not more awareness. Although you're right, the there's definitely they're building more awareness generally. But I think it's just something that's largely misunderstood. I mean, even by doctors, you know, imagine going to your doctor and being told, like, you look fine, you don't think you don't look like you have an eating disorder, that happens to my clients all the time, and you know the advice that they're getting from their doctor, conflicts with mine, I think it's, it's really tough. And that's why being connected with a community can just be so helpful, because the community understands, the community is a safe place that you can connect with and be able to express yourself and feel more understood and seen. I think that's a huge, it was a huge part in my healing journey, as well. So I would say, yeah, just always try to stay connected with the community or you know, your favorite podcast, I'm sure your podcasters are all very appreciative of your podcast.

Stephanie Mara 31:21

Yeah, thanks for that. And I completely agree, I think community is really important. And that if you feel like you're still in the experience of shame, maybe you're listening to this, and you are still one of those people who hasn't told a single person, that's okay, that's also a protective mechanism. And what I find is that if you can find just even one person, like one safe person that feels like they can hold space for you, they're not going to try and fix anything, or solve anything, but even just what I find of telling just one person starts to decrease that shame, because oftentimes, these disordered eating behaviors, they breed in the darkness, when no one knows about them, when they can't be called out. And so just telling one person can start to shine a light on it, and start to feel like wow, I'm not doing anything wrong. I've been doing the best that I can.

Natalie Rose 32:15

I completely agree. And it reminds me of another DBT skill that I really like, which is called opposite action. So when our shame is not justified, in this case, how it talks about toxic shame, right? Like, it's just, it's not like you just did something wrong, and you can work on your behavior, you're, you're experiencing this shame as a person, you want to just do the complete opposite of what you feel like doing. So like you said, shame often compels us to withdraw and isolate and hide and be secretive. So you want to do the complete opposite to combat that shame. And you can practice, even if maybe you're not ready to start by disclosing the eating disorder, can start off small like say you did something silly that you feel embarrassed about, like maybe you tripped in public or you walked out with like some toilet paper stuck to your shoe or something like, just tell someone about that. You know, something that when you live with toxic shame, like something like that can be so embarrassing. So start with little things like that, and kind of build your tolerance for that feeling. And that in your confidence and being able to show yourself like just be your authentic self. I think that can I love that tool when it comes to combating shame.

Stephanie Mara 33:32

I love that. And it brings in this I'm all about baby steps. I think that we have to break things down into such manageable bite sized steps so that nothing potentially, you know, pushes us outside of our window of tolerance, it feels more easily manageable and navigatable, if that's a word, and so you know that what that brings in is that breaks even the experience of shame down into a bite size baby step of okay, what is something that's really small that kind of just like what I like to imagine if my you know, window of tolerance is like up here and I'm just butting my head right up against it. That it's like, okay, walking out of the bathroom with like, toilet paper off my shoe. Yeah, that feels like, oh, my gosh, how could I let that happen? Why wasn't I paying more attention? Like I could totally like feel into that when you're explaining that example, that it's like even something that small that it doesn't have to go straight to telling someone about your food or body coping mechanisms and behaviors, that if it's something that it's just like, oh, you know, I said something weird to my boss today and I don't know why that came out of my mouth, like these tiny little moments that we have throughout the day that if you start to feel like you're spiraling, you know that it's just like, oh, could I tell this to one other person and then it might grow from there, what I'm hearing, to maybe telling someone about your food and body behaviors.

Natalie Rose 34:58

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Really the opposite of shame is self compassion and exposure, just revealing yourself, not hiding, not withdrawing, not keeping secrets. So I think yeah, I love experimenting with those baby steps and then looking back and feeling proud of those things and feeling oh, yeah, I could do that no problem now, you know, I even look at things that I do to this day or I've achieved to this day and think about how oh my god, embarrassing that would have been a few years ago or would have never been able to do that. And even that, in itself just helps build your confidence as a person. And that is also a huge piece to healing from disordered eating.

Stephanie Mara 35:42

Yeah, yeah. Feeling like, you've got your own back.

Natalie Rose 35:45

Exactly.

Stephanie Mara 35:46

Yeah. Well, do you feel like there are any final words for those who are listening that you'd like to offer them around you know, if they're navigating the experience of shame, or, you know, at different phases of their healing journey with eating disorder or disordered eating behavior, you know, what final piece would you offer them today?

Natalie Rose 36:06

I think what's coming to mind, just as we were sort of talking about toilet paper stuck on the end of the shoes is like, it's also really healthy and healing to inject some kind of humor into our journey. You know, like, obviously, eating disorders and disordered eating and shame are so serious, and so, like, hopeless, when you're in it, it feels that way. But there's always some room for humor, or it can even be a good way of coping, like another sort of opposite action is like, you know, instead of ruminating in shame, you know, put on your favorite show, or movie or something that makes you laugh and it kind of just helps you separate yourself from the big thing that you're going through, not as a way to avoid it, but just to be able to tolerate that, yes, like these big emotions can exist, you can be dysregulated, and also have these moments of regulation or calm, or safety. It's not all or nothing.

Stephanie Mara 37:12

I love that. And I completely agree, something that I really like to normalize, even with those that I work with is Netflix is a resource. That your favorite show that you like to watch over and over again, that makes you laugh, and it makes you feel good and there's even some regulation that can occur when you watch repeats of shows that you've watched before, because you know what's going to happen, nothing is going to catch you off guard, you know, you're gonna laugh at this, it can actually feel like a very calming experience. And so I think that there's a lot of, you know, again, shame that could come up over, I should be doing something like, quote unquote, better for myself in this moment. But sometimes watching your favorite show or movie is your best tool in that moment to bring in just a very different bodily state.

Natalie Rose 38:06

Totally. And it can also be really healing if you're someone who is, you know, tends to overwork or overachieve, and you know, doesn't normally make time to sit down and rest and just kind of escape into a show. So I completely agree with everything you just said.

Stephanie Mara 38:27

Yeah. Well, thanks for being here and for sharing your wisdom today. And I'd love for you to tell us how individuals can keep in touch with you. Where can they find you and your work in the world?

Natalie Rose 38:37

Yeah, definitely. So you can find me on Instagram and I'm on TikTok @wakeupandsmelltherosay. My website is Wakeupandsmelltherosay.com. I'm working on some new ways to get connected with more people, whether that's through group programs or support groups or things like that. So yeah, so join me if you're interested in any of that. I'm I'm pretty excited for this year coming up.

Stephanie Mara 39:06

Awesome. That sounds great. And I know that especially with the past couple of years that we have been in, I think we're all looking for more connection and community right now. Yeah, well, I will put those links in the show notes, and to anyone who is listening, thanks for being here. If you have any questions, as always reach out to either of us anytime. And I hope you all have a wonderful rest of your day and I will connect with you all soon. Bye!

Keep in touch with Natalie Rose here:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wakeupandsmelltherosay/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@wakeupandsmelltherosay

Website: www.wakeupandsmelltherosay.com

Contact: wakeupandsmelltherosay@gmail.com