How Trauma and Mental Health Issues Will Affect The Foods You're Drawn to Eating

Welcome to the Satiated Podcast where we explore physical and emotional hunger, satiation and healing your relationship with your food and body. I'm your host, Stephanie Mara Fox, your Somatic Nutritional Counselor. Sometimes I sense it's difficult for eating disorder or disordered eating practitioners to talk about nutrition. There's this fine line between not wanting to put too much importance on it because there's potentially already been a lot of focus on food AND wanting to gently discuss that nutrition is important and can play a role in your healing by eating consistently to stabilize your blood sugar levels which can in turn help to navigate your moods and emotions; that there is a food mood connection and that your mood can be affected by what you eat. Food at this point may feel like it's been there to help you navigate nervous system dysregulation and I want to offer you hope that a different relationship with food is possible for you and one where you feel like you can fall back in love with food for all that it can support you with to living your most vibrant and satiated life. Today I chat with David Wiss who is a Registered Dietitian Nutritionist and in 2013 founded Nutrition in Recovery, a group practice of RDNs specializing in treating eating and substance use disorders. He earned his Ph.D. in Public Health with a minor in Health Psychology from UCLA by investigating links between adverse childhood experiences and mental health outcomes among socially disadvantaged men. He specializes in the connection of mental health and nutrition. His app, Wise Mind Nutrition delivers educational content using nutrition and lifestyle medicine to improve mental health outcomes. We discuss nutrition's impact on mental health, the connection between trauma, food behaviors, and hyper palatable foods, navigating diet and anti diet cultures, and making empowering food decisions. If you're at the part of your healing journey where you're not yet ready to put more emphasis on what you're eating, let this episode plant a seed that doesn't need to be watered yet. You get to trust exactly where you are on this healing path. And if you're curious to learn a somatic approach to your nutrition, there's still space to sign up for the Somatic Eating® Program beginning April 22nd. You will learn how to make your body your nutrition expert to discover what nutritionally works for you and only you. Go to somaticeating.com to learn more and sign up. Now, welcome David! Well, I am super excited to have you on the podcast today and to talk about all things nutrition. And I would first like to just get started with how you got into this work and a little bit about your history.

David Wiss 03:21

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me on the show. I'm excited to learn more about you and your podcast. And I'm honored to talk about these new areas at the intersection of
nutrition and mental health. I found nutrition as a second career. It wasn't super later in life, but I didn't choose it during my initial studies. When I was in school, I took a nutrition class when I was I did my undergrad at USC, here in Los Angeles, University of Southern California. And I took a nutrition class, probably when I was 19. And it was I'm gonna say the year 2000. So a long time ago, and the class was very focused on like you everyone got into this, like water measuring thing to calculate your BMI. And it was calories and it was tracking and the class was super, super, like difficult for me. I wasn't in a phase of my life when I was inclined to do any of that. And I think it was normal. It was a normal thing nowadays that class would never happen, right? Like the risk for disorders is pretty well established. Anyways, I dropped out of that class. So I ended up dropping out of my first real nutrition class like this is too much. I'm not tracking anything. This is ridiculous. You know, I ended up bouncing around a couple other career paths. I was into counterculture and rave culture, and I ended up having some health problems. I got my life together after you know some low spots in my early 20s. And intuitively, I kind of knew that there was something in the nutrition space that I hadn't ever explored. And I got a strong calling to just start eating foods that I had never ate before. Like we talked about intuitive eating a lot in my field and intuitively was drawn to foods that hadn't really entered my body. And I had this natural suspicion that they would do something for me. And it actually happened, it was quite profound. The food that I started eating changed my skin, and it changed my energy, people picked up on it. And it was like, super obvious that I was a changed person, obviously, I made some other big life changes, I stopped drinking alcohol, which was huge for me. And I started moving my body and getting sunlight and sleep. And I had one of those revolutionary changes that people kind of dream about like that you would get into wellness, everything would change. It did for me, of course, like I said, there was other life changes that went along with it. But I saw nutrition as being very supportive of my life transition. And that's how I like to offer it to people is that you know, nutrition can be very, very supportive. When you're navigating tricky times, it can be very supportive when you're going through really great times as well. So needless to say, nutrition had a profound impact on my mental health. And I noticed it, I didn't feel as anxious anymore. And I felt optimistic about my life. And I wanted to pursue it as a career. And pretty much everyone told me you should, you know, because I was already passionate about it. I was like one of those people that wanted to, you know, take my friends to Whole Foods and show them about the blackberries and teach people about flaxseeds and stuff like that. And so it was super exciting times, like getting a restart button on my life. Yeah, I had been through some adversity. So I had a clear path, which was super exciting. And I went back and I finished my undergrad, I got a master's degree in nutrition, became a registered dietician, I started a private practice called nutrition and recovery. And I started bringing nutrition to people that were in addiction treatment centers. So started running groups at mental health treatment centers. In 2013, when I became an RD, there was a huge surge in treatment, particularly here in Los Angeles, I just got a chance to come in and start running groups and meeting with people one on one. And, you know, I was able to share my own experience with nutrition being supportive of my transition to recovery. And people were digging it. Yeah, it was different because I didn't come in there talking about calories and macros the way a lot of people tend to think about nutrition. Nutrition has such a such a vanity feeling to it that is such a turn off. Obviously it draws a lot of people in, but other people are just like, I don't want to do that, I don't want to just focus on, you know, muscles and abs, I want to talk to think about nutrition differently. So I brought that energy, which was like very refreshing to people and I built curriculum and hired some dieticians to work alongside with me, and then went on to do a PhD and started becoming a mental health scientist and doing research and have since brought it all together.

Stephanie Mara 07:55

Awesome. Yeah, I remember just kind of getting more into nutrition myself. And the experience of oh, like different foods make me feel different ways.

David Wiss 08:11

Yes!

Stephanie Mara 08:11

We were talking about before this call of just how much contention there is in the nutritional world that it's hard to even say that nutrition matters. And I say this with the caveat to anyone listening of like, yeah, depending upon where you are on your healing journey, sometimes you just have to eat and move on with your life, like, okay, I gave my body nourishment and that was good enough and just move on. And I find if we can bring in just a lot of play with food, that it's just like anything, different thoughts make us feel different ways, different drinks make us feel different ways, being around different people make us feel different ways that if we can just see nutrition as this thing that we can play with that is just going to produce different sensations or emotions or feelings inside of our body, there's like a lot less pressure on approaching it in that way. I don't know if you found that at all.

David Wiss 09:08

Same. Yeah, I'm all about bringing joy and celebration energy into the grocery store and into the kitchen. But it's also wise to recognize that, you know, everyone has their own psychological profile. And so everyone needs different things based on where they're at, you know, emotionally, cognitively and spiritually if someone is deeply rigid, and has a lot of rules about food, and they're very pass fail and they're uncomfortable in the body that they live in, that person could probably benefit from some play, lighten the load, right? Let's just have some fun relax a little bit. And similarly, you could get someone who's very under ordered that doesn't have any sort of boundaries in their lives or any real structure with health at all. That could benefit from something that was a little bit more deliberate and intentional. So I've always found that it's super important to assess someone's, you know, psychiatric and psychological profile to determine how rigid or fluid they are, be up to be able to help move someone in the right direction. And you mentioned this contention in the nutrition space, I've identified this as being one of the main reasons is that some people need some really clear information and some structure. And then for other people, you know, that could be a haven of disorder, because it's some new rules, right. And so it becomes very tricky to talk about nutrition at a group level, and especially even on a social media level, because everyone interprets it as like, this is a message for me, and I don't agree with it. And then it just becomes this really unsafe place where people don't feel like you can even talk about nutrition at all, because it's going to be triggering, because this person needs this message. This person needs this message. So yeah, we're entering this new era of nuance in nutrition, where people like yourself and me are trying to learn how to talk about these things, in ways that are safe and non triggering.

Stephanie Mara 11:04

Yeah, completely agree. Actually, also, I didn't know that about your background, I also worked at inpatient addiction treatment center, and they were doing a lot with nutrition and supplements and precursors to neurotransmitters and all that stuff there. And I'm curious what you found getting into that field, what supported an individual navigating maybe some addictive like behaviors, I'll just phrase it that way, when it came to food and how that helped the healing process.

David Wiss 11:36

Yeah, and this is a perfect example of like, the sort of eggshell energy in the nutrition space, the overlap between substance use disorders and eating disorders is high, you know, some estimates say it's up to close to 50%. Right. So, you know, the criticism of pushing wellness in an addiction treatment center is that you could get someone that takes that information and goes too far with it, they learned about sugar, and they cut it out. And now they just want to spin and drink juice, and they're doing this to heal their addiction. And meanwhile, their eating disorder is starting to run rampant. So I've always been someone that is careful not to get into any extremes, because I'm attuned to the tendency for people that have any mental health history to gravitate toward those extremes. So I'm very aware of the classic message in addiction treatment of like biochemical repair, high protein for neurotransmitter production, right? And, you know, a lot of the supplements, I mean, I've written book chapters on these things, right? Different substances require different supplements. And I think that, you know, there's a big difference between doing group education and doing one on one, I think some of that stuff, like protocols should be saved for one on one sessions. And then in the group, it should be more some of the stuff we're talking about big picture issues, you know, learning how to navigate the tricky terrain of food, hunger, fullness, I do like to talk about food politics a bit, I find that people are interested in that, to understand like how big food corporations are marketing, their ultra processed foods, but all doing it like in a super gentle ways to make sure that no one gets activated and like turns into a new quote unquote, disorder.

Stephanie Mara 13:30

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the thing is, is that when someone is navigating, let's say, a trauma response in their body, they're going to feel more drawn to what is now being called, like hyper palatable foods.

David Wiss 13:45

Yes!

Stephanie Mara 13:46

These foods can support with things like dopamine production, serotonin, endorphins. And so when you're struggling in feeling good on your own, and trauma can affect some of these neurotransmitters, and how well they're functioning. That food kind of comes in as an ally. But ultimately, you know, eating these foods can sometimes kind of spark that desire to want to keep eating them, because they're helping you in some way feel a way that you're struggling in feeling on your own.

David Wiss 14:22

That's right. I got into this link between trauma and ultra processed food addiction many years ago, it was quite obvious that the trauma addiction link in general was quite robust, right. The original ace study showed people with multiple forms of childhood adversity had 567 times the odds of illicit drug use alcohol use disorder, and that science was just replicated over and over right? People that have childhood adversity, that have PTSD are more likely to have addictions, period, right. And so it seems pretty obvious to me that because of the neurobiological overlap between substance use disorders and food related issues that you know that would that concept would transfer quite easily right. And, you know, from my deep dives into the scientific literature and some of the papers that we've written, there are very clear biological mechanisms, right that childhood adversity, PTSD, complex trauma, it changes the reward pathways in the brain, and it makes someone more likely to assign value to rewarding substances as a way of reducing negative effect. We call it salience. Someone can have a very tough moment and intrusive thought, and learn pretty early on that highly palatable food will make that go away. And then the memory stores that and it becomes a very clear behavioral mechanism by which to reduce those negative emotions, right. And so the brain learns that very, very early on. And it becomes, you know, some people would call it emotional eating, some people would call it binge eating, you know, and it could be that and, you know, we've used this term, hedonic eating, right, which is more pleasure based eating, addiction like eating, we've had the term food addiction for many years now. And those of us that publish in the space have really started using the term ultra processed food addiction to really discern between the banana and the almond and you know, the chips, cookies and cakes, right? Because those foods are known to elicit the neuro chemical response that's associated with addiction, whereas some of the more minimally processed foods are not. And so yeah, this is a really loaded can of worms, because in my field, in the eating disorder space, there's an ethos of like, you know, all foods fit, don't target any specific foods, don't generalize. And so there's a resistance to this concept that ultra processed foods can be addictive, and that this is going to be more pronounced in people that have a history of trauma or nervous system dysregulation, right? So there's a huge split going on. We have people that are saying, you know, if there's trauma, we need to really move people into eating real food, Whole Foods and balance, get them to homeostasis, heal the immune system, gut based nutrition. And then there's people that are saying, no, you just got to eat those foods, and not worry about it. And there's contention right now. I'm really excited, because I'm speaking at IAEDP in March next month, which is the International Association of Eating Disorder Professionals, and the name of my talk is ultra processed foods, worthy of discussion or just more diet culture, right. I'm going to be able to talk about in the context of mental health, and and also explore this idea that you know, these terms and these ideas can come across as very much diet culture promoting, and instead of saying, like, it's either this or that, really start talking about the nuance and the intersectional spaces.

Stephanie Mara 17:57

Yeah, I'm so glad you're bringing this in. Really excited about your talk as well, that it is hard to navigate the space that we're in right now. Because it just feels like there's these two kind of camps, so to speak, of you have diet culture, which is like, hey, that's kind of enmeshed with wellness culture as well, that it's like, you only have to eat these foods, these are "health producing foods". And you know, this is what's gonna get you to where you want to go. And then we have anti diet culture, which is like, nope, you need to eat anything, and everything and just normalize all foods, and you'll find a normal place with it. And what I've often found is that there's this place in the middle of kind of bioindividuality, and that it depends upon your history, where your nervous system is at, what you are uniquely navigating, and even your genetics of what you were born with, that there are some foods that will resonate with you, and some foods that will not, and this doesn't have to do with willpower or weakness, this has to do with working with where your system is at now. And that it's not going to be that forever, because your nervous system can change, your gut microbiome can change, your body's basically entirely healing itself after you know, what is it like seven years or something like that, you know, there's just so much renewal that can occur that shifts and changes what is going to work for us when with food. But I find that a lot of individuals are coming to me now so confused as to what to listen to or what to do, that we're not bringing it back to listening to your body, which is a lot of the work that I do of like, well, can we just eat something and then notice how does it feel in your body? Because if you notice that impulse to want to keep eating something over and over and over and over again. Okay, is that the way you want to feel in your body and can we make it less of a morality issue? And more of a like we just listen to your body in what supports you in actually feeling safe and grounded with where you're at.

David Wiss 20:05

So well said, and I have come to the conclusion that when society as a whole feels unsafe, you know, and there's a lot of contention debate, bipartisan ways of thinking, people are more likely to pick a camp and do the in group versus out group dynamic. And so those of us that are wise minded, you know, and have logic are able to see the need for bringing this together. But social media algorithms don't work that way. Emotions don't work that way. People get pulled into one position, and then sort of pitted against the other one, which is why I think, you know, the term anti diet is problematic, because it's very much defining yourself based on what you're against, rather than what you're for. And so if you have diet culture over here, and anti diet culture over here, I do like the term non diet because it's suggesting a more neutral position to me, I identify as non diet, which means that I'm not super interested in like the math part of it. It's not a weight focused practice. It's not about calories and macros. It's about mental health, gut health, etc. But yeah, I've observed the anti diet camp, go off to some extremes. And there's many of us, you know, dietitians that are kind of coming around to be like, hey, you guys have lost your way. Yeah, I mean, it's an important movement, and I am a part of it, right? Like really calling out diet culture. If you think about it, diet culture is huge. So if you want to have a counter movement, you got to like, make a splash, right? You're not going to just be middle of the road and get nowhere. So it makes sense to me why people have splashed really, really hard. But it does, it does go against a lot of public health concerns when people are, I guess it gets a lot of people's nervous systems uneasy when you see someone who's a health care professional, like pushing foods that are promoted by major food corporations, and saying that these are safe, and there's nothing wrong with them. I think there's some truth to that for some people, but the majority of people are like, wait a minute, what are you saying, right? Artificial sweeteners are good for you? Or right, like, so I'm just kind of eating popcorn and watching a little bit. I've written some blogs about it, the polarization in the space. But I want to have compassion for the anti diet movement. Because like I said, I'm somewhat a part of it. And I've realized, you know that a lot of those people are either people with their own personal history of eating disorder recovery, that used to diet really hard and now they're still sorting through their dieting background on social media, and helping other people that are in it. And they're also dietitians that used to have like weight focused practice that were like that were pushing dieting, and they feel guilty about it. And so now they're like, trying to, you know, go to the other extreme to compensate for the negative feelings they have about doing that kind of diet focused work. And then there's a lot of people that have enmeshed these topics, with the social justice issues, you know, around gender, race, body. And so it has this strong emotional charge that makes it feel like it's more than just nutrition that we're talking about. We're talking about body liberation, and some other really large systemic issues that are very, very important.

Stephanie Mara 23:36

Yeah, I laughed, because I'm feel like I'm doing something similar, where I'm just kind of sitting back and like watching it all, you know, and there's just so many movements that have come out that I agree with you are so important that sometimes we need something so dramatic, where the pendulum is swinging entirely the other way to start to bring in a different perspective. Because especially, I always find this interesting, because when I first got started, social media was not a thing. And so to also see social media become such the main movement to get information out there, you know, it makes it both amazing and also very difficult to have to sleuth through, you know, what actually works for you because so many individuals are putting out amazing messages. But it's also from a place of listen to me, not yourself and what is going to work for you. And so it can get very, very confusing. And then we also have, you know, so many different layers of who you are as an individual in regards to your background, your upbringing, your environment, your genetics, all the things that make it not so cut and dry and simple around there's just this one way to approach food.

David Wiss 24:56

Thank you for saying that. It's so important because it's something that I've struggled with, you know, I've got all the credentials, and all the publication history to like, you know, warrant me trying to be a guru. But like, I genuinely don't want to be someone's food guru, I genuinely want to empower people to look within. I don't want to tell people what to eat, I want people to like do the work to be able to decide what to eat on their own, you know, and I've learned that in the social media space, right, that sort of empowerment message, the nuanced message, you know, it doesn't get the attention the way the self proclaimed guru does, you know, and so I've thought about it scratched my head over the years, I was like, should I step in and like, be a little bit more firm about a food philosophy and really hammer people home with the Doctor Wiss diet? And the answer was always like, no, don't do it. Trust, trust your, stay true to thyself, you know. And that's why I built the wise mind nutrition app so people could learn how to become the expert on them to come in and learn about these concepts, these conflicts, and to do some digging, to do some introspection to do some assignments, to learn, and then ultimately start making their own food related decisions, food and body related decisions, rather than outsourcing them to some expert.

Stephanie Mara 24:56

Yeah, so in kind of what you've been exploring, especially with those that you've been working with, what have you found be supportive and helpful to guide someone towards listening more towards themselves, and maybe not necessarily shutting out but like listening less to the external messages?

David Wiss 26:40

Yeah, there are a lot of people that are on what we call the high fat diet, right? Too much information, too many facts. Sometimes it is wise to have someone tuning out from podcasts and books and social media things for a little, little bit of time. Sometimes I like to, you know, like I said, I like to start with the assessment of someone's cognitive rigidity, versus cognitive fluidity to see, you know, where we can start to either create more structure or maybe loosen the structure. You know, because I do both kinds of work, I work with people that have like severe eating disorders. And the work is loosening the structure. And I work with people that just have health challenges and disordered eating and night eating, and they need more structure. So an example of creating structure would be just focusing, for example, on the first week on just when to eat, just starting with somewhat of a timing strategy, and it doesn't have to be exact. But if someone's been erratic with their food, and they eat at different times of the day, and they go for long periods of time without eating, like, that's a really good place to start, you know what I mean? Just to like, get on the universal meal plan, have breakfast, lunch, and dinner, you know, like, that could be a really good place to start and thinking about, like, how does that look how you know, how many hours are between them? Very roughly. And then once someone's got some circadian rhythms, and perhaps good good sleep hygiene and some movement, you know, that it's like, okay, it's wiser to move into the what to eat conversation a little bit, and I have a food group system, I like to use food group systems, because essentially, what they do is just make sure that someone gets representation from all the different categories of foods, right? So eating foods that can easily be classified into the food group system is a good place to start, right? Fruits, vegetables, grains, whole grains, right dairy, or dairy alternative proteins or protein alternatives. And then I have my own food group for beans, nuts and seeds. I think beans, nuts and seeds as a source of plant protein can be very, very important. So if I'm going to encourage someone to say, for example, let's get all six of those food groups twice a day. You know, it's like, okay, they're already on somewhat of a structure, right? Meals and snacks. And now the goal is to get all the food groups daily. And then let's get all the food groups twice a day. And maybe try getting three food groups every time you eat as a way to help expand the amount of food groups that you get in the course of a day. And then once someone's got a basic nutrition education, you know, we might move into how to eat right how you are as an eater, the rate at which you consume food, mindful, eating, soulful eating, the practices of grocery shopping, and in the kitchen, cooking all of the other components chewing, right, who knew that chewing mattered, right? So moving into the actual rituals of eating and the environment that can be really, really supportive of someone, and then everyone wants to know how much to eat, right? That's sometimes like the first question just tell me how much to eat. Like, I don't know how, like, how am I supposed to know if it's supposed to be three quarters of a cup or a cup? I don't know. You know, like, and, you know, I don't want to say that you know, everyone knows because some people's bodies are dysregulated you know, I mean, like, they cannot trust their hunger fullness cues, period, right? And they might like really benefit from having someone give them support there, right. So instead of using measuring cups. I like to have people log their food with photos, you know, in the app, right? And just like upload a photo, how many food groups were there? Which ones? What was your hunger score, fullness score, etc? What percentage of the meal did you consume that can be super supportive? I look at food logs quite a bit, you know, I just I'm scanning them and seeing the food group distribution looking for colors. I like to see all the colors of the rainbow. And then after that, the bulk of the work that I do, the fifth component of wise mind nutrition is, how to think about food, right? The language that we use, the energy that we interface with it, how does body image fit in? Right? How do stress, trauma and adversity impact our thinking in our relationship with food? Right? So there's a lot there.

Stephanie Mara 30:48

Yeah, something that I was reflecting on, as you were talking was just how much we're not really taught how to be an eater. We just expect like, okay, as a baby, you know, once we're transitioning away from breast or bottle milk, that we're just going to eat, and like food is going to be put in front of us, and we're going to learn how to eat it. And like, there's no really teaching even for parents on how do you also support your child as they grow in age to be an eater and have a relationship with this thing that they're gonna have a relationship with their entire lives. And so then you get into, you know, your 20s, and you're like, wait a second, if you go away from college, or leave home, whatever your path was, and you're like, oh, I have to feed myself now. Like, how do I do this, especially if there was no conversation around it, and then you get into your 30s and 40s and your body's changing, and you're like, I have no idea how to navigate these changes and how nutrition might support me with that. And so it starts so young, that I just like to bring in so much compassion for every single person, that if there wasn't really a role model or a basis on how to have a relationship with food, and what that even meant that it can feel really, really confusing.

David Wiss 32:07

Yeah, and we live in an era of convenience, where a lot of that has been outsourced, right to the major corporations, the big industries have kind of brought in this message of like, we got you, you don't really have to worry about this, we're gonna make it super, super simple on you. And I think, you know, those of us that, you know, I was born in 1980. So like, I was like, right at the, 81', actually, but 80' was the transition when people like recognize the era of convenience eating so I was born right there on the cusp. I think that for like my parents that transition to like convenience, eating didn't have that much of an effect, because they grew up like connecting to food naturally. But when parents now are convenience eaters, and then raising kids to be convenience eaters, they're like you said, there's a loss of transferable skills and the cultures around food, and I believe it to be a major source of loss of control, eating, binge eating, dysregulated eating, you mix in the rising addiction rates, you know, whether it be substance use disorders, or behavioral addictions, really smartphone addictions, the tech addiction, that overall dopamine dysregulation, people are more impulsive, have less attention spans, you mix that in with the unsettled nervous systems from the fear that we have about society and all the issues that are just pushed through mainstream news, right? You've got impulsivity, you've got fear, you've got convenience food, and it's a perfect recipe for disaster. And people are experiencing disordered and ruptured relationships with food, and then come to you or come to me and it's like, okay, where do we start, there's, there's work, there's work that needs to be done. And like, I hate to break it to you, but it's probably not just gonna be a one sheet meal plan, you know what I mean? Right? And people still come to me expecting that and wanting that. And I tell people all the time, it's like, it's not that I don't have that, like I have on my, on my desktop, right? In folders, like I have so many things that I could give you and I'm happy to, I just have been doing this work long enough to know that there's a road of reconstruction ahead. And there's going to be steps to take to undo decades of neuro chemistry, you know, and it's meaningful work. And it's such a shame that people see the value in doing this kind of work with a therapist, but sometimes don't understand the value of working with a nutrition therapist. Right? Who's someone that does one on one work, being able to move people into peace with food, peace with body to have actual better nervous system immune system, it's powerful, powerful work. And, you know, the last complaint I'll file for today is insurance doesn't cover it, you know, the way that it does other sort of health care modalities. I mean, I'm a, I'm a dietician so you know, there are coverage for, you know, eating disorders and certain types of things that I do. But generally speaking, most people reach out to find that no, I don't take insurance, I can give you a super bill and you can submit it for reimbursement and people are a little bit confused. Like, I'm a I'm a I'm a doctor and a dietitian, and I can't the health care system doesn't have issues that you can help me with, why doesn't the health care system support this? Right? And I think that one answer, and I don't want to be Mr. Conspiracy Theory today, but it's pretty obvious that this nutrition work goes against the financial agendas of the food industries and the pharmaceutical industries. And that's pretty clear, pretty obvious to most people.

Stephanie Mara 35:37

I really hear you in just so many individuals reach out and I also don't take insurance and like, there's such a need right now for support. Not even if you have an eating disorder, just in your relationship with food, you know, and I think it's becoming more well known that we have this, like, the term relationship with food is getting more popular as a more of a term that a lot of individuals are using, and that we have this connection with food and we've gotten so far away of what a regulating and safety producing relationship with this thing can look and feel like. And that yeah, you know, a lot of individuals are struggling in receiving support, because they can't find support that they can financially afford. You know, this also talks about just like what, you know, so many individuals are just struggling, especially through the pandemic, just to support themselves. I mean, I think I saw a research study that eating disorder rates, like tripled during the past several years of the pandemic. So, you know, especially when everything was like shut down, and people are now alone in their homes. And, yeah, it's been, I think, a really tumultuous time for a lot of individuals when it comes to this food piece, and where to look, if they look towards, you know, wellness culture, they get this very drastic message of like, oh, you know, people are left with shame and guilt and judgment around I should be eating in this particular way, and I can't make myself do it. And then you go to anti diet culture, or non diet culture, and you know, they're saying, like, hey, you know, just let's relax around food and find peace around food, and then they don't feel like they can do that, either. So it's just like, well, you know, excuse my language, but like, eff it. And then, you know, someone just eats whatever they want to eat whenever they want to eat it and it's not necessarily supporting them in feeling the way they want to feel in their body, but at that point, nervous system has kind of gone into an immobilized and collapse state, where, you know, it's hard to be able to assess from your prefrontal cortex, like what is going to be the best decision for me here, when a lot of individuals have been navigating living in a fear response and more from like that amygdala part of their brain.

David Wiss 37:56

Thank you for saying that. I couldn't agree more. These campsite culture has created a lot of wandering souls looking for a home. And, you know, insurance doesn't cover it. And, you know, as a practitioner, you know, with the eating disorder things spiking, like I've stayed busy, you know, my practice has always been full. And that's why I decided I was going to build an app so that people could have a no cost low cost option to learn how to navigate these terrains and do trauma informed nutrition. And I feel so so blessed to have had the resources to be able to sort of kind of fund that so that there was options for people to come in and log your food, set intentions, do a nightly review. And to watch the modules, cover the stuff we talked about today, when to eat, what to eat, how to eat, how to think about food, and do some recovery work, do some journaling, and I built the app so people could connect with others on it. So coaches and practitioners can follow their clients and see their food logs and check out their digital workbooks, or look at their intentions or their supplement list, etc. So it's super robust. And I think that, you know, nutrition for depression is picking up a lot of steam. And in the mental health space, we have a lot of mental health professionals moving into nutrition. And you know, a lot of the dietitians some of my colleagues are like, you know, threatened and angry, why are people moving into our space? And I'm more likely the one to say, no, this is a space for everyone. Let's share, let's collaborate, let's build tools, let's help people bridge the gap between mental health and physical health one bite at a time.

Stephanie Mara 39:34

Yeah, yeah. So if someone is listening to this, and they're curious about your app, what can they expect if this is a resource that they want to check out?

David Wiss 39:46

It's in the Apple App Store and the Google Play Store so it's fully developed and ready to go. I'm super excited because you know, once you download it, there's an intro video right on the today page that tells you how to navigate the food log, how to do a nightly review, to move through the modules, right. So it's very user friendly at this point, it's taken a while to get it to a place where it flows really well and makes sense for everyone. But it's designed to be like, I mean, my experience clinically, I work with a lot of people that are 50, 60 and 70. You know, like, the 20 year olds, they're just like, they're like an app, they already intuitively know how to use an app, there's like, seemingly like a learning curve for people that are not app friendly. I mean, I talked to someone the other day, he was like, I don't use apps. And I was like, what do you mean? Right? So so it's definitely something that requires, like a little bit of tech inclination, you gotta wanna, you gotta trust that even though it's an app, it's filled with human energy. And it's not just me in there. There's cooking lessons from other dietitians. There's meditations, there's other teachers in there. But it really is me leading the way in teaching about food for mood and brain health. So it's not, it's not specific to eating disorders. It's not specific to food addiction. It bridges the gap between those differences. But it really is nutrition for ADHD, depression, anxiety, trauma, helps people build resilience and recruit social support. And it's data driven. So when someone subscribes, and it's $29 a month, you fill out some screening tools to figure out your scores on these mental health indicators, depression, anxiety, etc. And then as someone moves through the modules, logs, their food, they're able to see after completing a cycle, how their mental health scores may have changed. So in my fitness pal, you get these graphs of like your calories and your body fat percentage, wise mind nutrition gives you graphs for your mental health scores, right, you're able to see how lifestyle medicine, including nutrition, can improve mental health over time. And of course, there's a lot in there, right? There's like there's breathing and yoga. So it's loaded with recovery centric, educational content. And it's designed to mimic the experience of working with me for six months, you know, I see all my handouts are in there. So there's a lot of professionals that are going through just to like cherry pick all the wise mind nutrition and download all the things because you know, all my spa waters, and, you know, salad dressing recipes, I just put everything and updated it into a cloud. And it's all delivered through an app. And I made sure because my you know, my background PhD is in public health, I made sure to make it very affordable to all people. And so you could come in and there's no credit card asked up front, just come in and start logging your food. It's not like the trial period ends and your credit cards, it's just like, the app is free. If you want to do more, you can do more, right. And so I made it very gentle, very safe. It's safe for people that have restrictive eating disorders. And it's also safe for people that want to get into recovery from addiction like eating. It's really, really crafted to bring in energy from different worlds. And to have a point of view, but also be agnostic. It's not designed to like push the Doctor David Wiss point of view, it really is designed to introduce the concept of nutrition for mental health, and to change the paradigm so that people have a way of thinking differently about these things. And I'm telling you, there's a lot of people that have gotten through all the modules, and the people that have done that the intentions, the nightly review, did the modules, life changing experiences, and you know, if you think about the modules, the subscription, you get it all for maybe two months of a subscribe, right? It's like less than the cost of meeting with me for 10 or 15 minutes, you know what I mean? So the value is there. Yeah, we're certainly looking to build a community, people that are finishing the program can take someone else through it. So if you're a coach, and you're looking to right, expand, you can use this in your toolkit. I built it for coaches and mental health professionals to be able to support your clients. And yeah, if there's anything I can do to help anyone, I'm happy to set up a zoom or be supportive in any way.

Stephanie Mara 44:12

Awesome. Sounds like a really cool offering. And what I really hear is also that you're bringing in so many different modalities, and that sometimes what it takes, you know, I think there's also like we've been talking about that so many individuals feel like they need to polarize themselves on social media that like this is the way and oftentimes, the analogy I make with a lot of those I work with is if we can see this more like stepping stones, where I may be a stepping stone and then someone else may need to be another stepping stone and you may have maybe different practitioners that you work with, and the modalities that you explore, to get to where you want to go but there is no one correct path for anyone so I hear you kind of drawing and for you get multiple different things which is very exciting.

David Wiss 44:58

There's a correct path for anyone, there's not a correct path for everyone. Right? Right? So there's gonna be things that resonate with people, and they're gonna be drawn to the Medical Medium, and they're gonna find their path there. And if that's true, like, I want to celebrate people for finding their way, there's a lot of people that are looking for their way, but the key thing to remember is that just because it worked for you, doesn't mean it's going to work for your cousin, or your partner. And that, you know, encouraging people to find their own way and listen to the calls that they get is super, super important. And then also remembering that when people don't feel well, we're vulnerable, and you're more susceptible to being marketed to and pulled into some way. Right. And so it's always wise to go in, proceed with caution, collect information. But yeah, there are there is a surge of people that are like myself saying, you know what, I don't have the way I can bring together different schools of thought and help you find your way. And I think that's a much more long term sustainable approach. It's associated with better long term outcomes, but might not be as catchy, flashy, and viral.

Stephanie Mara 46:12

Yeah, and, you know, if anything, through our conversation, for those who are listening, you know, if you see someone trying to be very polarizing, just start to get really curious about that, you know, just if someone is putting out such a strong message of like, you have to eat like this, or you have to do this, you know, that doesn't include what is ultimately going to be very supportive or exploratory for you. And so start to just look at social media with a very critical eye of okay, this is a message that could speak to someone, does it speak to me? How does it feel inside of my body when I read this material, when I you know, read this person's guidance or advice, so that you're also finding where you're at, and what is going to be most supportive for you moving forward, and that's going to shift and change. So that might look like sometimes unfollowing and refollowing, you know, really just continuously connecting back with yourself to say, okay, this is what resonates with me now. And it might not resonate with me forever. And when it does change, you get to trust that too.

David Wiss 47:23

And I would add, if something resonates or lands or pulls you in, after that, it's also wise to pause and ask, is it appealing to my wounded place? Right, or is it appealing to my, to my healing place? Right, because a lot of times, some of those messages appeal to fears and wounds, which is what makes people spend the money on the programs. And once you can move into a more healed, safe and neutral place, you can make decisions using what we call the wise mind.

Stephanie Mara 47:52

Yeah, I so appreciate that addition, absolutely. Sometimes we have to slow it down, you know, give it the 45 minute rule. It's like, okay, I just received something I feel very drawn to that. Let me give it 45 minutes to really assess that for myself. Because yeah, when something is actually activating and triggering, or even familiar from our trauma in the past, we're going to feel very drawn to it initially. Because there's something in us that's like, oh, that feels comfortable, because I know that. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to bring you closer towards regulation and safety and healing for yourself.

David Wiss 48:30

That's right. Very well said.

Stephanie Mara 48:33

Yeah, well, I so appreciate all of your wisdom and everything that you shared here today. And I'm curious for those who want to keep in touch with you and your work in the world how can they do that?

David Wiss 48:43

My clinical practice is nutrition and recovery. That's nutritioninrecovery.com. My personal Instagram is @drdavidwiss. And then I have channels for wise mind nutrition, on YouTube, Instagram Tiktok is a lot of fun. Wisemindnutrition.com has about 80 blogs at the intersection of nutrition and mental health. So many people are finding that to be useful to get references, etc. And I can be contacted on any of those places through any of the websites. Like I said, the app is free and available for download today. And you can also send me a message through the app. So I'd love to hear from you.

Stephanie Mara 49:26

Awesome. Well, thanks so much for sharing that. And again, it's just a pleasure to connect with you today. And you know, always wonderful to connect with individuals doing similar work as myself in this world.

David Wiss 49:37

Yeah, I got this sense that we have a lot of overlap and I love it. Awesome.

Stephanie Mara 49:41

Well, to all of those who are listening, if you have any questions, I will leave all of our information in the show notes and I hope you all have a wonderful rest of your day. Bye!

Keep in touch with David here:

Websites: ⁠https://www.nutritioninrecovery.com/

https://wisemindnutrition.com/

Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/drdavidwiss/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@drdavidwiss

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKmf_KiCMK03wpCEfUpnLig