Healing Trauma through Nutrition, Nervous System Regulation, and Energetic Herbalism

Welcome to The Satiated Podcast, where we explore physical and emotional hunger, satiation, and healing your relationship with your food and body. I'm your host, Stephanie Mara Fox, your Somatic Nutritional Counselor.

I know we've explored plenty here on how your food coping mechanisms are a reflection of your nervous system and a way that your body relays that it is not feeling safe. What I've been diving into more now is what sends a cue of safety to your body and your nervous system so that it can shift out of the sympathetic state and into a parasympathetic state of connection and relaxation. These cues can come from an abundant amount of different resources that can include your food, supplements, and herbs. The thing that trauma can do inside your body is keep you stuck in quote, unquote, "on". The body will need your support, relearning when to turn on and when it can turn off by knowing that it is safe and can ebb and flow in and out of different nervous system states based on what is appropriately needed.

For example, if you put your hand on a hot burner, it is appropriate for your body to turn on the flee response to get you out of there. If you're sitting and watching Netflix in the evening and you feel that same way, that might not be the accurate response for your nervous system to have. So your body needs support to assess the environment and know what is needed and when. I chat about this and more with a returning guest, Michelle Brown.

Michelle is a Functional Nutrition and Lifestyle Practitioner and Clinical Herbalist. She also holds a certificate as a Mastery of Level Biology of Trauma®, Advanced Provider. She works with clients from around the world to address anxiety, depression, fatigue, and other chronic health issues from a root cause, trauma-informed perspective. This approach addresses nervous system dysregulation and emphasizes the mind-body connection that allows true healing to happen. We talk about the Biology of Trauma®, how trauma can manifest as health symptoms and food issues, addressing nutrient deficiencies that occur as a response to trauma, the energetics of herbalism, and what herbs can support your nervous system.

Some of the pieces we discussed today, I dive into more in the Somatic Eating® Program. The next class, as a reminder, starts October 28th. This is a three-month class where you will learn the wisdom in your food impulses and understand your body's communication to start to respond back in non- food ways. You can learn more and sign up at somaticeating.com. Now, welcome, Michelle!

I am so excited that you are back on the podcast, and I'm really excited to get into a totally different conversation with you today than the one we previously shared on the podcast. And for maybe those that maybe didn't catch your previous episode, which I can put a link in the show notes to our other episode that we did together, so people can check that out, sharing maybe a little bit of your background and what drew you now more into the trauma field, and taking your work in that route.

Michelle Brown 03:36

Absolutely! Well, thank you for having me back, Stephanie. I'm excited to be here and share a little bit more about this trauma biology connection because I really found that it was like this missing link for so many people who are struggling with these chronic health issues or their mood, right, like anxiety or depression. I got into functional nutrition from my own health journey, of course, like so many of us struggling with chronic autoimmune conditions. I had Hashimoto's. All of that came about because of eating disorders that I struggled with as a teenager, kind of messed my body up at that time, but I really had no understanding or no really way of recognizing that trauma was playing a pretty significant role in that whole unfolding of my own health journey. And you know, so I got into working with clients and helping, you know, of course, I was a health coach, nutritionist and herbalist as well, and I was seeing good results, but I had these clients coming to me who they were really struggling with their health and like not getting better. They are the clients who struggled with trauma, too. Now, at the time, I really again, I didn't understand this connection, but I just recognized that, yeah, these are the people who just seem like they're kind of just stuck in these chronic patterns right with their health. And then I kind of stumbled into this work, honestly, and started learning about trauma and the Biology of Trauma®. Of course, I'm a Biology of Trauma® Mastery Level professional now, and I'm trained with Dr. Aimie Apigian, and I mentored with her. And as I started working with that, I guess I kind of started hearing about this trauma concept, and it really piqued my interest because I think just on a fundamental level I understood that, like there's something more going on with my own child journey and with the people I'm working with who have been through some significant things in life that, you know, I think, is getting in the way of getting better. And so then recognizing what trauma even is, right? I think a lot of people, I mean, I thought trauma, Stephanie, was just like, this really big, terrible thing that happened to you, you know. And I felt like, well, I've never really had trauma. I had a pretty normal childhood, and, you know, nothing significant that I felt like, really I could call trauma. And yet, when I looked back at the time of my life, like when I struggled with eating disorders, it was all related to trauma that was going on in my life and in my family. And so recognizing what trauma is, how it impacts our, of course, our behaviors and our thoughts, but also our biology, really shifted my ability to help my clients get better and move past these chronic health issues that they were just kind of stuck in. As well as my own health journey, and finally, being able to move past some chronic issues that our nervous system, patterns that develop around trauma that keep us stuck in places that we often don't want to be, and even when we're trying so hard to move past them right, we just can't seem to shift those patterns. There's things going on on this biological level that we need to recognize and understand before some of those chronic patterns will really shift.

Stephanie Mara 06:40

Thanks for sharing all that. You know, it's really interesting. I've seen more and more nutritionists and functional medicine doctors talking more about this nervous system regulation, past trauma piece where they're even like, Hey, I might not be the person that can support you with this, but if you're dealing with these things, you might also want to look into this too. That I feel like just the awareness of how much potential past trauma does play an effect in how our body expresses itself is becoming more aware. And I'm curious if you could say more about like, when you say the Biology of Trauma®. Like, what does that even mean, and what does that change inside the body?

Michelle Brown 07:29

Sure. You know, I like to say that the nervous system is really the key, right? It's really kind of the foundation of everything. Because, as you know, our nervous system has this job of telling us that we're safe in the world, and when we've experienced trauma, whether that's again, a big T trauma or, like so many of us, just the little T traumas that we've gone through, where life just gave us these experiences that told us we're not safe in the world, right? We don't have the support we need; however, that might have shown up for us. And as that happens, the nervous system then, I mean, it's communicating with the rest of our body, our hormones, our immune system, our digestion, and so everything is relying on this nervous system response to tell the body basically how to function. That's our biology, right? This idea that even at the cellular level, our ability to make energy is impacted by our nervous system response and the state of our nervous system. Whether we're in a stress, fight or flight response, or we are in a trauma response, right? That chronic freeze pattern that so many of my clients tend to present with that the information that the nervous system is getting is telling the body how to react and how to function, basically that biology level. If we understand that, we start by supporting that nervous system response. And again, I focus a lot on the biology because as important as it is to think about our behaviors and our habits, and yet, sometimes it's really hard to shift those types of patterns with our behaviors. You know, I know you help your clients with eating patterns, right, that may be showing up in their lives, and I've done that as well, but presenting it from this biology side, where, if we're just low in certain nutrients, for example, if we are low in neurotransmitters, which can be impacted by our nervous system presentation, then we're going to struggle to shift behaviors right that are showing up in our life. It's like, I feel like we're fighting against our own biology, as I like to say, when we don't address the underlying nervous system patterns from a biology level, and we just try to focus only on the behaviors, the thought patterns, the habits that were showing up in our life. So, hopefully that explains a little bit more that biology. I mean, really, it's everything that we could call biology because it's all impacted by the nervous system. We know from the work of like Dr. Vincent Felittii, who was the author of the ACEs study, that first childhood event study, that people who have been through trauma early in life they are more susceptible to autoimmune conditions and other chronic patterns because so many people present with different issues, whether it's chronic pain or like me, with Hashimoto's, an autoimmune condition. And yet it's all coming back to this place of this nervous system response to overwhelming situations in life that we consider trauma.

Stephanie Mara 07:29

Yeah, you know, the way that I like to think of it is any healing journey. I know, for most that are listening here, the journey that maybe you're going on is in your relationship with food and healing patterns of, you know, binge eating or restriction or chronic dieting, or, you know, anything that happens in your relationship with food. In any healing journey, there's the physical healing, and there's the emotional healing. And that's what I really hear you talking about, is that, yes, we can explore the emotional realm, but if we're also not paying attention to imbalances in the physical realm like they go hand-in-hand. One is not more important than the other, and healing needs to occur with both. Because oftentimes, like what I've seen is that, Okay, so let's say what you're talking about. You experience some kind of childhood trauma early on. Like you even mentioned, it could be little T trauma, which little T trauma is just something that as a kid may have not when you look back at it, you're like, was that traumatic? And it was like, yeah, if you were not met and seen and held and heard the way that you needed to for extended periods of time. It's not about what happened. It's about how your body processed that, which I'm sure you have heard that and studied that as well. So your body's like, Oh, I don't think we're safe here. Gets dysregulated, but the longer that you stay in dysregulation, the more the body is going to have to compensate and compensate and compensate. And so I'm curious what you've seen in those overlaps with your work with autoimmune conditions because I know people have also come to me as well where it's really, really difficult to then your symptoms are real. Like your autoimmune condition is real, and it is also a reflection of what your body had to adapt to survive certain previous experiences. But now you're trying to heal both your relationship with food, where there's such an emotional aspect to that there, and you're trying to heal your physical body. And there's real physical symptoms that are absolutely happening. Like, that's not just somatic. You're not just making that up that I know a lot of people have felt dismissed by doctors, and I'm curious how you've navigated all that.

Michelle Brown 12:50

Yes, I love how you bring out the idea that you know, it's like two sides of a coin. I think of like a teeter totter almost, right? Or, like, if we put weight on one side, then the other side's gonna go up and one side's gonna go down, right? And we need to have balance there, so by all means, yes, the emotional healing, the somatic work, those are so valuable, but we have to balance the biology side of things as well. And I really see that being overlooked in this whole conversation about trauma. And even, you know, you mentioned a lot of functional medicine practitioners now are recognizing trauma, and they're saying, like, go figure this piece out, right? If that resonates with you, because they're recognizing that if we don't address the underlying trauma patterns, the nervous system patterns, that all these good things we can do with functional medicine, often, we don't get anywhere because our body gets stuck in these chronic patterns that, again, on a biology level, that are really hard to shift if we don't address both sides. I'm thinking of a really young client I worked with for a few years. Actually, she's had a lot of chronic health issues and was brought about by she actually had the Invisalign braces that actually triggered an autoimmune response in her body. She was very ill for several years. She's done a lot of work and made a lot of progress, but even recently, she has been having a lot of stomach pains, and so, I mean, I started working with her when she was a young teenager, and she is probably around 20 now, so I can meet with her mom at different times. And recently, her mom was kind of telling me about these stomach pains. She's having trouble eating because of the pain, and so she went to the doctor to get maybe some scans done just, right, to make sure there's nothing going on. And as we were talking, you know, I told her mom that, you know, I think that's great to, yes, let's get this checked out, of course, but I also recognize that I know some things going on in her life that are pretty stressful for her. Just bringing out the thought that I think she needs to look at this nervous system piece as the foundation. Yes, she's having digestive issues, but if we just focus on what's going on with digestion and we kind of ignore the nervous system, I think we're really overlooking something really significant in this pattern that's showing up for her. We talked a little bit about not just the biology side, but right, really bringing in the somatic work and really tuning into that nervous system response, recognizing that stress and trauma are playing a role here. So, definitely, there's two sides to that coin. And, a lot of people, as I mentioned, don't even recognize that there's any kind of biology piece to this nervous system work. So that's really where I want to bring out the idea that even as we're stressed, right, we're using up a lot of our nutrient stores, right? We deplete more zinc and vitamin B6, and magnesium, for instance. And so, like, as you said, the longer we stay kind of stuck in these patterns of stress or overwhelm, the more deficient we're going to become in nutrients, the more depleted we're going to become on that biology level. So, you know, we're meant to move through these different responses of our nervous system, right? We're all stressed at one time or another. We've all been overwhelmed at different times, but ideally, we're coming back into this place where our nervous system is fluid. We're able to move back into parasympathetic, that rest and digest part of our nervous system that we all like being in, where we feel calm and in control of life and alive and aware, and yeah, if we get stuck in these chronic patterns, right, even on that biology level, it's harder to move through those responses of the nervous system and back into that place we want to be at.

Stephanie Mara 16:30

I'm wondering, from a physical realm, just because you have such an extensive background in, you know, herbs and supplements and all of that good stuff, like, what have you seen actually communicate to the body that it is safe? Because something that I've shared a lot on this podcast about is how much our food behaviors are information of our nervous system. But now something else that I'm starting to explore is okay, if it is a response to our nervous system, what else could also send our nervous system a cue of safety, like taking more magnesium because it's depleted during times of stress? You know these things that it's like, Oh, what's also gonna help my body feel safer to be here?

Michelle Brown 17:18

Absolutely. So, when we're depleted on that biology level. And again, I call it the biology level, just anything related to that internal cellular level. Do we have nutrients? Are we depleted in certain nutrients? Nutrients like copper, for example, if we have too much copper in our system, can increase anxiety and irritability. And so if we have these imbalances on this biology level, then we are definitely going to be more susceptible to overwhelm, to stress. One of the things that I look at, of course, we talked about in the last time I was on the show, we talked about neurotransmitters. So things like serotonin, I give my clients an assessment right where I can see, are we potentially low in some of these neurotransmitters, like serotonin, because there's kind of like this constellation of patterns or symptoms that can show up when we're deficient in serotonin, for example, which is one of our neurotransmitters that really helps regulate our mood. So, when we have adequate serotonin levels, you know, we feel good in our body. We feel like we can manage our mood, we're happy, we're enjoying life, but if we're deficient, it often shows up as like depression, and things like seasonal depression, even eating disorders are related to low serotonin levels. And so if we're low on serotonin, just that one example, right there. You know, it's so much harder to make those decisions and behaviors that are going to help us do the things we want to do right. My clients who are reaching for food in the middle of the afternoon, like carbs, sugar, right or late in the evening, and that was part of my picture with eating disorders. And yet we know that we need adequate zinc levels, B6, magnesium in order to make serotonin, basically to go down the right pathway to make serotonin. If we have inflammation, that actually shifts that pathway. So instead of making adequate serotonin, we're making more pro-inflammatory markers, and that's part of why we experience depression when we are low in serotonin. So yeah, looking at that biology of the nervous system is really fascinating. And then as we address that, right? We bring in the nutrients that are needed, or we address the serotonin or the other neurotransmitter levels that are low, we address that inflammation, and we can do that with nutrients, with food, with herbs, right? So many ways that we can address that biology level. It's so true. It's like your capacity of your nervous system just increases your capacity to handle the stress, the potentially overwhelming things that are showing up in your life. So, I think it's really fascinating to look at this biochemistry piece of the nervous system recognize the really significant players, the specific nutrients, and neurotransmitters and pathways that are impacted by stress and trauma so that we can support those on that biology level.

Stephanie Mara 20:08

That makes me think of the window of tolerance that so often, when we're talking about the window of tolerance, it's all emotion-based. That it's like, okay, if you experience past trauma, it often makes your window of tolerance much smaller, and so you're going in and out of what you can tolerate much faster. And a lot of the discussion is on, okay, we need to start to widen your window of tolerance through, you know, being with discomfort, through navigating your emotions with more ease, through showing up for yourself with different sensations that you're experiencing. And what you just described was, how can we also internally, give the body a cue of safety, that it can kind of naturally grow your window of tolerance, because it feels safer to be here based off of its getting its nutritional and thinking like nutritional antioxidant, you know, all the things met, regrounds the body to want to be here.

Michelle Brown 21:14

Absolutely, it's exactly what I'm trying to say, right? And the fact that, as we recognize that, you know, one of the things I look at with clients are what we call biochemical imbalances that really impact the nervous system response. So, things like methylation, right? I know I can give clients an assessment to see if they have these patterns undermethylator, and then that's really shifting their ability. Again, my undermethylators are my people who have significant issues with depression or anxiety, like often lifelong patterns of. These are my clients who will come to me and say, right like they haven't had the big T trauma like they're just like, I don't know why I don't have anything significant in my life that I can say I should be depressed or anxious about. And yet here I am, stuck in these patterns of anxiety. Everything starts to feel overwhelming. And of course, many people have been through significant trauma as well who are under methylators. I don't want to discount that, but understanding that when we have these underlying patterns on this physiological level that just make us so more susceptible to overwhelm, then these patterns are going to show up more quickly than when we're well- resourced on that internal level.

Stephanie Mara 22:25

I'm curious if you could say more around, like, how else this biology of trauma can show up. Like, you've listed a couple different great examples of like we're looking out for, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, and I love that you're bringing this in because so often we see a lot of anxiety, eating disorders, and I love that you're bringing this in because so often we see a lot of these things as an emotional issue, and not very often or not as well known, are we looking at like, what is the body trying to communicate about this that might not be emotional. Because I've certainly had people come to me as well, being like, I've done tons of trauma work, and, you know, I feel like I've healed from my past, and I still can't stop binging and like, I don't understand what's going on here. And from that perspective, I just start to bring a lot of curiosity in of like, okay, the body's still trying to communicate something, but now it's on the physical realm, not the emotional.

Michelle Brown 23:28

I love that. You know, I'm an herbalist as well, as I mentioned, and all herbal traditions in the world are based on systems of energetics, meaning that really simply, if I have inflammation, right? We see heat patterns with inflammation. If I cut my finger, it's gonna turn red, it's gonna swell, probably, you know, even a little bit like hot to the touch, right? Like there's heat patterns. And so I want to use herbs that energetically balance that heat pattern. So things that are cooling, right, they're like antioxidants, like you mentioned, right? They're gonna quell that inflammation. So these are often people who energetically if you kind of understand that word in terms of how different patterns show up for people, they're out of balance. We need to recognize that it's these imbalances at this physiological level that we need to shift and address. I mean, it's often related, of course, to psychosomatic stress and spiritual and emotional stress as well. But of course, it's going to show up on a biology level, Stephanie, right? Like, of course, these things all impact one another. It like flows back and forth, and so understanding the person in front of me that they often are presenting with deficiencies, these energetic imbalances that are keeping them stuck. Again, I feel like I'm repeating myself, but I really want people to understand that we get stuck in these chronic patterns, and it's really hard to shift that if we don't address the underlying imbalances that are causing that pattern. Right? I mean, the body is really smart. Like you were saying, the body's trying to tell us something. I mean, it's trying to share something with us that we want to pay attention to. I feel like in our society, we kind of just been trained to, like, kind of ignore the body, right? I mean, if most people, if you have anxiety, if you go to your doctor, like they're just going to put you on SSRI. Benzodiazepine, right? We just want to, like, shut down the signals that the body is in discomfort, right? Like, of course, we want to put an end to its discomfort, but I think we need to tune into and say, Well, what's out of balance here? What is my body trying to communicate to me and tell me that I need to shift because something's showing up here for a reason? And instead of kind of just ignoring or trying to shut that down, can we tune into that discomfort for a moment and ask, like, What's out of balance? What does my body need right now? And so often, it truly is on a biology level that we just have these deficiencies, imbalances that we need to address. Again, inflammation is always a part of these pictures, and so understanding that and addressing that underlying inflammatory mechanism that's been triggered is the only way really to shift those patterns because your body's in that chronic pattern for a reason, and it really does come back to that nervous system response, right? It's really there to protect us as unhelpful and as stressful and unhelpful and uncomfortable as it may feel, we want to recognize that, oh, the body's doing this for a reason. It's telling me something. For a reason, we can tune in and listen to that. That's when we can really shift those patterns. And just makes me think of the clients who come to me and they've done so many things, are on so many supplements. They've done all the, you know, functional lab work. They've done all the diets and the tests and all the things, right? And yet they're still stuck in these chronic patterns. And it's when they really start recognizing that there's this nervous system biology that has to be addressed first that then we get somewhere.

Stephanie Mara 26:57

First, I don't feel like you can reiterate enough of like; I really appreciate that you're calling it stuckness. I actually hear just a lot of compassion in that. Because when we put a label like an eating disorder or disordered eating or an autoimmune condition, there's like, this stuckness in that. That it's like, Oh, this is my issue. I'm just going to stay stuck here. This is now, like, who I am. It becomes a part of your identity instead of, No, this is how your body is communicating that it is stuck in some nervous system state that has been left on and it was never meant to be left on that long. So, I don't feel like you can reiterate that enough because I think it's a really new concept that we are hearing more of, but I feel as though we need to hear more of it, that this isn't someone's fault. You know, we get to decrease the amount of judgment and shame and internal criticism that happened for so many people when they're struggling on their healing journeys that it's like, Oh, what am I not doing right? Where did I go wrong? Instead of seeing it as this beautiful wisdom from your body, of like the autoimmune condition, for many, was trying to protect them, support them. You know, it's trying to communicate something to them, and really getting, like you said, that curiosity of like, What might either emotionally or physically my body might need here? And that might also mean reaching out for support from someone like you to really address like, Hey, I've been at this for a really long time, and I feel like I haven't quite found it yet. Maybe you could offer me some glimmer of hope or piece of information that I'm missing.

Michelle Brown 28:47

Absolutely. I love how you said that, Stephanie. I feel like I talk a lot about awareness with my clients and this idea that we just bring awareness to what's happening in our body and what's driving these chronic patterns. It takes away a lot of that guilt and shame that we often feel around these unhelpful patterns that are showing up in our life, right? I know for myself, dealing with eating challenges and an eating disorder as a teenager, that there was so much guilt and shame and basic, I mean, self-hatred really over that. And yet, looking back at my 15- year-old self now that I'm 45 it's like I have so much compassion for myself that that was the only coping mechanism I had at the time, the only thing I knew to do to fill any kind of regulation in my body when everything felt so out of control and overwhelming. And so as we understand why these patterns are showing up and what's driving them, then we have that place of, I mean, just compassion is a really powerful place to be, because that's where I think you can really shift things. We're sitting in judgment and in shame. It's really hard to change those behaviors. The other thing I think that it brings to the table is this, what I like to call ownership of our healing journey. I really don't want to just sit here and tell my clients what to do, take this herb, but I want them to understand, like what it's doing in their body. You know, I teach a lot about herbal energetics because I teach my clients to understand their own unique energetic patterns that are showing up, and then how to match their energetic patterns with the right herbs and foods and even lifestyle practices that bring balance to their system. So I love how you worded that and brought that thought out that you know, this idea of awareness and compassion is so very powerful, and it really does start there.

Stephanie Mara 30:38

Yeah, well, you've mentioned this like energetics piece, and I'm curious of what you've explored with those who are maybe struggling in their relationship with food or struggling with an autoimmune condition or some kind of symptoms. If you could explain more about, like you said earlier, like if you understand that, I'm like, well, let's dive into it.

Michelle Brown 30:58

I would love to talk more about energetic herbalism because it's really my passion. I kind of combine my, like, functional nutrition training with energetic herbalism, all within this foundation of nervous system healing work. And I found that, like, it's just such a beautiful combination and helping my clients really understand what's going on in their body, why these patterns are showing up, and this idea of energetics, right? Like I already explained, it's a little bit about how these patterns are showing up in their life. So, as someone with Hashimotos, right, with an autoimmune thyroid condition, I have a pattern where I tend to be a little on the cold side, right? Like it's, I mean, it's like July, and I'm in a sweater because the air conditioner's on, right? That's kind of my energetic pattern of always being a little bit on the cold side. My skin tends to be a little bit dry, right? And yet, you know, I'm thinking of one of my professors, actually, when I was going through my clinical herbalism training. He was a TCM practitioner. And so when we were learning kind of energetics from that perspective, he always used himself as an example, and it was a really great example for me because he's basically the opposite of me. He's, like, probably six foot one and 200 pounds, and he is, like, a redhead. His face was always red. He was always like, I mean, he was in this room, he'd probably be sweating right now, right like, he's always warm and, you know, the different energetic pattern. And so that's kind of our idea and understanding of what energetics is. You might think about like, how these patterns show up for you as you're listening. Maybe you're a person who's very loud and vocal. That was definitely my teacher, but I'm more of like, kind of a quiet, soft-spoken person in real life, and love to talk about this stuff. So, I get pretty excited, but just different energetic patterns showing up. And so, I know then, as I start to recognize the patterns that are showing up, how to bring balance into that person with an herbal approach. And so if I can give you a really quick example, I use some different herbs called adaptogens, which many people are familiar with, right? We think of adaptogens as these herbs that help regulate the HPA axis, and they're an amazing class of herbs. They really are the foundation of a lot of the work I do with my clients and using herbal medicine. But not all adaptogens are created equal, and many people are treating them like they are. And so, just in as an example, I have a course called herbs and adaptogens for mood, stress, sleep, and hormone balance. And I have this slide when I'm teaching that I call my continuum of adaptogens. So basically, it's kind of showing you, on one end of the spectrum, adaptogens, like Ginseng, American or Asian Ginseng, or Rhodiola, are very stimulating adaptogens; very energizing. On the opposite end of this continuum of the spectrum is something like ashwagandha that's very, I mean, almost sedating. It's very relaxing. It kind of has a heaviness to its energy. So for someone who's in a chronic freeze pattern, they probably aren't going to do great with ashwagandha, actually, right? They're already in this energetically, a very kind of heavy, low-energy state, right? And they need something more stimulating on this end of the spectrum with Ginseng, or maybe we talk about Rhodiola because it's an interesting one. But the person who's going to do better with Ashwagandha is my person who maybe they're dealing more with anxiety and they're overstimulated already, right? They need energetically, something a little more grounding, and I'm going to use the word heavy or sedating for their system. And you know, it's funny when I teach on herbs and share this information about adaptogens, people are really fascinated, because a lot of people have tried things like Ashwagandha or Rhodiola and they didn't get good results. And they're like, Oh, now I understand why. And really quickly, I'll just share since I mentioned Rhodiola, I have a lot of clients who've used that one as well, and it's kind of over here on the more stimulating end of the spectrum with adaptogens. And it's actually one of the most stimulating adaptogens, and I've seen it cause panic attacks and pity in clients, right? So it's not the right herb energetically for someone whose pattern is already overstimulated, anxious, you know, kind of that sympathetic response of the nervous system that they're stuck in. It's very drying, so I don't use it with clients who are dry. I've seen it cause dry eyes and other issues. And of course, when we create balanced formulas with herbs, using things like nervines, which are herbs that help relax the nervous system response. Then, you know, we can kind of balance out right the energetics with herbs and find a really unique formula for each person. But just knowing, if you're out there and you're interested in using herbs to help with this nervous system regulation in your mood, we want to know a little bit about how they work, right? Not all adaptogens are created equally, and so kind of understanding your own unique energetic patterns, and then knowing how to balance that. And there are certain foods even, right? So, as that person who's very kind of always cold and more cold, dry type of pattern in Ayurveda, which is just a traditional herbal medicine practice. I would be a Vata type. Maybe I'll share my guide to energetics with your audience if they're interested in learning more about this energetic piece. But I noticed a few years ago, when I was kind of learning about energetics, I was eating a lot of, like, salads for lunch, and I was doing some like bitters, like, you know, digestive bitters, which are very cooling to the body, and they help stimulate digestion. But I was doing all this, like, cooling food, right? Lettuce and salads are very like cold energetically. I mean, just obviously, right? We know that they tend to be cold. And I would eat lunch, and then I would be in, I was working as well at this time for another company and, like, and it's really cold building, and I would eat lunch, and then I would be like, Oh my goodness. I'm, like, literally sitting here shivering. I'm so cold after eating lunch. And it kind of dawned on me that, Oh, you know, I'm eating these really cold foods. I'm taking these really cooling bitter herbs, and they're really impacting my energetic patterns. And so, you know, I had to start adding a little more warming foods into my diet, quit taking all those cooling bitters, and that really shifted that pattern. But it's a good example of how there are a lot of things that we're doing that are impacting our energetic patterns that, again, someone like that, where we're doing a lot of cooling Vata type energy foods or herbs, that pattern also can show up as anxiety, right? And stressed out all the time, kind of just trouble sleeping, maybe. So a lot of the things we're doing that even we think are really good things to do, like eating salads and taking herbs, can actually cause us to become imbalanced. So yeah, that energetic piece is really an interesting way to look at how these different patterns are showing up in our life and how to balance them.

Stephanie Mara 37:43

I loved all of that. What it makes me think of is that, like you were saying earlier on, if everything is either information of our nervous system or communicating something to our nervous system, that there's no right way to eat. There's no right way to take supplements or herbs or move your body or anything because it is all based on what is my body trying to tell me through the nervous system state that it's at or like the energetics of is there upward energy, downward energy? Am I in a cooling place? Am I in a warming place? And that if we start to learn how to drop into our bodies, which we are not taught, we are not guided back to ourselves. We're just constantly being told to put kind of our power, our wisdom, in other people that you know, put it in the doctor, put it in the physician, that they'll have the answer for us. And yes, obviously, every external person can be supportive, like you were even saying earlier, like, yeah, sometimes you maybe need the medication at first. But also, like, what is your body trying to communicate through needing that particular medication? And that everything that you do can also be sending a message to your body and getting curious about, like, what kind of message do you want to send to your body? Which I really want to invite in compassion that I get, that that's hard, especially when you're in more of that trauma state. I know in times of my life, I was so in it that to even reflect on, like, what message is this sending to my body was not possible. So if you're at that place and you're listening to this, like, I get that, take your time. But even just starting to slow down and saying, like, Okay, I'm noticing the urge to take this supplement, food, drink, whatever it is. And where am I at today? And what might that be communicating to my body? And is that what I want to communicate to my body? Because sometimes it's furthering you in the energetics or the nervous system state you're already in, and do you want to stay in that state? Sometimes you do. Or would actually maybe something else guide you into this state that you're actually looking to move into, and have connected that like, Oh, that fifth cup of coffee is really gonna do it?

Michelle Brown 40:03

Absolutely, yes. I think about from that energetic perspective that, yeah, as we start noticing just how do things impact my body and my state of mind? And, yes, coffee, right? Very stimulating. But what I love about the herbal approach is that it's so simple and even enjoyable, right? I was, I'm part of, of course, The Biology of Trauma® Mastery program, and in that, I mentor other professionals in this modality. And we were having a conversation about this neurotransmitter piece, right, where, if we're low in serotonin, GABA, these neurotransmitters, we're going to feel dysregulated. And we were talking about some of the ways we could approach just working with some support for neurotransmitters. And I brought out the idea that a lot of our herbs actually regulate neurotransmitters. So St John's Wort, right, helps to improve serotonin levels. Ashwagandha is GABAergic, meaning that it improves GABA levels. And yet, I find that they can also be so easy and enjoyable to use. I mean, just a cup of chamomile tea before bed, right? Maybe a little dropper of milky oat seed in there, which is a really lovely nervine that really helps to just support the nervous system response on a really fundamental, nutritive level. These things we can do that I feel like they're enjoyable, and even essential oils and flower essences, right? They're easy to use. I have some clients who struggle with taking capsules, right? Or, you know, I have clients who take a lot of capsules, and they get tired of it. And, you know, as much as I do use supplements, I find that sometimes that an herbal approach is a little more easy to introduce, more enjoyable. In fact, I talk a lot about herbal rituals and routines we can create in our day to support our nervous system response. But yes, this idea that we can work with our energetic patterns, even on that nervous system level, and shift those because I've been in that place as well, Stephanie, where it's like, I'm so dysregulated right now that, like, I can't even get into a place of trying to shift this right? And that's a really frustrating place to be because it's uncomfortable. I mean, we definitely want it to shift, but we just don't have the capacity in that moment to do that. And sometimes these products, like herbs, like Motherwort, Ashwagandha, they can actually shift our nervous system response, sometimes within minutes when we can't do that through our own somatic tools and other kind of mind-body tools, or whatever we might use to regulate our nervous system. I've seen things like Motherwart, like Ashwagandha, like Skullcap, really shift a nervous system pattern that was stuck for people.

Stephanie Mara 42:39

Yeah, I actually just started playing with Skullcap. It's a good one. I love that you're bringing in more resources because what I find of what we're addressing is that when you are in a dysregulated state, that first off, and we've explored this a lot on the podcast, that your prefrontal cortex is shut down so to be able to rationally, logically think through like, what could I do for myself here is going to be exponentially harder in that moment. And what I find is that we need a bunch of different resources and creating lists and writing it down to say, Okay, I have lots of things in front of me that I could choose from, and what is as quick as my food coping mechanism might be, and that's why it's so difficult to, I have found, shift leaning on food solely for regulation, because it is so easy and it's so quick and it's so available. And so I love that you're bringing in this piece of, okay, well, there are these, like tinctures or supplements, that you can have on hand, that you know, taking these could also just be another resource in your list of options to have something that's quick, that's easy, that's gentle, and maybe support your nervous system in shifting into a different place to maybe have a little bit more of that parasympathetic nervous system and prefrontal cortex start to turn back on, to feel like you have more choice again in how you respond to yourself.

Michelle Brown 44:13

Absolutely, it's what I love about them as well. And I love that you brought out the idea of having lists. I've been in that place where, you know, I've been kind of in a stuck in a trauma response and an overwhelm or a stress response, and later I'll think, why didn't I reach for my, you know, GABA, or my Passionflower or my Skullcap, right? Like we kind of forget in that moment, we get stuck in those patterns where we just go to that fundamental behavior that we learn when so many of us, it's food, right? And yeah, having a way to kind of remind yourself like I have other tools here that I can use to shift these patterns I think is really valuable. I actually keep a little basket on my counter in my kitchen with my herbs in it so they're not out of sight and out of mind. I want them to be right there. Where I don't forget to take them every day after, you know, after a meal, or however I'm using them or in the moment. Or there's my milky oats tincture, so when I make my cup of chamomile tea at night, I won't forget to add a little dropper in there to help. Again, just kind of resource my nervous system a little bit more on that nutrition level. So having ways to remind yourself, especially if these are new concepts to you, right? You're not used to taking GABA when your stressed or Skullcap or Passionflower to sleep, then, I mean, that's something I run into with my clients, right? Like, Oh, I have to remember to take these things. And we get to a point, I think that it becomes kind of ingrained in us, and it's part of our pattern or our rituals, and that's why I talk again about rituals and routines. Like I really don't know if I could go to bed at night now without a cup of chamomile tea because it's just part of that relaxing routine for me, and my nervous system really loves warmth as well, and that's another part of it that I find so calming to my nervous system, like that hot cup of tea before bed. So you know, for me, because I've made that my nightly ritual, I don't forget to do it. But if that's something you're struggling with, I love the idea that we have a list, or put the herbs right there by your bed, or, you know, in your kitchen where you are, you're gonna reach for them, maybe in the cabinet where you might instead of reaching for food, find those herbs instead. And, you know, just again, these really lovely ways, we have to resource our nervous system on this internal biology level, it can make a huge difference.

Stephanie Mara 46:29

I'm laughing because I also have a basket of herbs and supplements and things on my countertop, and my husband is always like, "Can we put these away somewhere else?" and I'm like, "No, they need to be right here on the countertop where I can see them and I could quickly grab something if I need it". So, I was laughing at that, just because I'm like, I really understand that. You know, in the moment, we need to make it so that our choices of how to regulate and support ourselves and see them feeling safe is so readily available, and it can be all of the things we've been talking about, about herbs, about supplements, but also, I had someone else on the podcast recently that was talking about like she has her yoga mat rolled out all the time so she could just step right onto it. You know, like we have to kind of set ourselves up for I don't love the word success, but, you know, set ourselves up to have our options so readily available to us, so that just as much as food has become a really easy, readily available thing, make all of these other things that could be available to you just as quickly easily possible for you.

Michelle Brown 47:43

Yeah, I love that. It's like that awareness piece again, right? It's in front of us. So we have awareness of these tools, and we're aware of our own patterns, but we're also bringing awareness of what we can do to shift it.

Stephanie Mara 47:55

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being here today. I love everything that you offered and suggested and just appreciate your wisdom and expertise in all of these things. And how can people keep in touch with you in the work that you're doing? I mean, your approach is so individualized, so it's just like, yeah, how can people get into your world to maybe receive a little bit more individualized support?

Michelle Brown 48:17

Sure, yeah, you can find me on my website, botanacea.com and I also have a guide I can share with your audience, Stephanie, on just kind of understanding their own unique, energetic patterns, and then how to start working with that in this nervous system regulating approach that we've talked about. So I'll share that with you as well.

Stephanie Mara 48:36

That would be awesome. I'll put the link to that in the show notes, and just thank you so much again for being here and sharing everything that you did today.

Michelle Brown 48:45

Thank you. It was nice to be back, and I'm glad to be here.

Stephanie Mara 48:49

And to everyone listening, as always, I will leave our contact in the show notes, so reach out anytime. I look forward to hearing how this episode landed for you, and I'll see you all next week. Bye!

Keep in touch with Michelle:

Top 10 Mood Reset Strategies Free Guide: https://botanacea.lpages.co/mood-reset-top-10/

Website: https://www.botanacea.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michelle_botanacea/