Food Freedom Foundations For You and Your Children
Welcome to the Satiated Podcast where we explore physical and emotional hunger, satiation and healing your relationship with your food and body. I'm your host Stephanie Mara Fox, your Somatic Nutritional Counselor. I am fan geeking over here to introduce you to Nicole Cruz. Nicole is an anti diet registered dietitian specializing in eating disorder recovery, intuitive eating and family nutrition. She is passionate about helping others find the same food freedom that she has. As a dietitian, she recognizes the importance of nutrition and its impact on our health. However, stress, joy, movement, socialization, genetics and socio economic status also influence our health. She believes when we prioritize diet over all other factors, we create an imbalance. I have been following Nicole on Instagram for a while now and if you're a parent, she is a must follow. I'm so excited to chat further with her today. So welcome, Nicole.
Nicole Cruz 01:08
Hi, Stephanie. And thank you for that introduction. You're so kind and I'm so glad that we're connected here today.
Stephanie Mara 01:14
Yeah, me as well. So as we get started here, I would love to hear more about how did you get into this work? What has your path been like?
Nicole Cruz 01:23
Yeah. I will try to keep it quite concise. But ya you know how that goes. Yeah, so I started, well, I guess I should say, in high school, I would consider myself to have kind of a tumultuous on and off love hate relationship with food. And when I got into college that really spiraled deeper into, you know, a diagnosable eating disorder. And so my relationship with food was really muddled and really interfering with the rest of my life. And so I ended up leaving college to get support to get treatment, and really heal my relationship with food, which got me kind of questioning a lot of the things that I thought I wanted to do with my professional life, I was unsure, I was thinking just really about everything, like what in the world do I want to do now. And so I ended up just starting to take some basic classes while I was, you know, doing some outpatient treatment, seeing my therapist, a dietitian, and I previously had been into a science major. And so it seemed like nutrition was just a really great flow for me to be like, oh, like I really like sciences. And I'm really working on my own recovery. And with my therapists and dietitians' blessings, I did start taking some basic nutrition classes and decided that I really wanted to become a dietitian. And I knew that it would be to help people heal a relationship with food, like I had no question. I knew I didn't want to do other clinical work or anything, I just really wanted people to see a different way that they could interact and behave with food. And so that's how I got started. And I've always specialized in eating disorder, recovery, disordered eating. And then as things have progressed, intuitive eating, and after having my own kids and being around more and more parents, family feeding as well.
Stephanie Mara 01:23
Yeah, so I know a lot of what you share online is about that family feeding piece. And I would love to hear more about because you share so much amazing wisdom on how to navigate a kid's relationship with their own food and how much that relationship with food starts at such a young age. What do you find has been, like missing in the mainstream around navigating a child's relationship with food?
Nicole Cruz 03:50
Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, that's really how I got started doing more family feeding stuff was because I was around my friends who had kids, and I was seeing these, these moms who have seemingly actually relatively normal relationships with food, I had a very great like, healthy friend group. And that way, which isn't always common, just because of the culture we live in that's full of so much dieting, and, you know, supplements and products, and eat this way and not that way, and, and all the things and so these women that had actually quite healthy overall relationships with food, were still struggling with feeding their children with like, but is it too much sugar? And is this the right product? And what do I start first? And it just, I could see the stress and then being in a children's preschool class, I would hear things like we were doing a pizza party or something and you know, a dad saying, Oh, well, my daughter's only allowed one piece or you know, things like that. And so, I was just seeing this kind of mainstream stress around food restriction. In a very well meaning way like this over focus on health, and nutrients, and missing allowing our children to listen to their body. Right? Like we were missing just this whole piece around, what if they're still hungry? You know, what if they want more pizza, like there was it seemingly no real indication that parents were interested in listening to their child and what their child might want with food. And I think, again, it comes from when you ask, going back to your original question, this over focus on nutrients, getting it all right, getting our kids to eat healthy, and really missing knowing our role as parents and providing the food and giving our children space to explore their own relationship with food to listen to their own body.
Stephanie Mara 05:49
Yeah. And I've seen with the adults that I've worked with, when they grow up in that potentially hyper controlled nutritional environment at some point later in their life, they might need to go off and try all the things that they weren't, like, quote, unquote, allowed when they were a kid. And I know for parents, when you're in it, that is such a scary place to even say, yeah, go eat birthday cake, go eat this thing with sugar and go have something that, you know, I think diet culture has may be framed as not nutritional. And I'm wondering what guidance have you provided parents of how important actually that nutritional adventure and journey and experimentation is for their kids?
Nicole Cruz 06:38
Yeah, I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head. You know, that's, that's really what it's about. It was like I was seeing these teenagers, these young adults, these adults into their 40s and 50s, describing things that I've hearing young hearing parents say to their young children, right, it was like the same thing about trying to be overly focused. And then I'm having overly focused on the healthy food. And then I'm having a teenager in my office talking about how they were never allowed to have Doritos or something, you know, and so it's like, oh, it's starting so, so, so young. And so I think, you know, that's, that's that piece is like, how can we help parents really see that those are the foundations. And that's a phrase, I always use the same preschool I was talking about, and when I've done this school with my children, since they were one, it's like a one year old class and a two year old class, it's mommy and me. And then it kind of graduates into a more Co-Op style preschool. And so our two year old class teacher there would always say we're parenting for the future. And are these same sorts of tactics that you're using now still going to be helpful when they're a teenager? Are you going to put them in their room for, you know, a timeout for 15 minutes because they're 15 years old? Like, like, some of the standardized advice? It's like, is that really laying the foundation, you know, for your parenting for your child? And so that's what I like to look at is that we're really feeding in for the future. And how do we lay this foundation, where our children are going to be able to listen to their body to navigate food on their own, instead of reacting? Because I think that is what often happens is that there's this control in the home. And then the child who's 8, 9, 10 years old, goes to a birthday party, and the parents aren't there and now they have access to all of this food and don't know how to be around it. Or they're a teenager, and now they can drive or they're going out with friends to restaurants, and all of these things continue to happen where have we laid that foundation where they have a neutral relationship with food where they can listen to their body? Or is the foundation always with, you know, this over control, these limits, and now they're just in reactive mode to, can I get that food I'm never allowed to have, I need to eat as much as possible, because I'm not allowed to have it at home. The guilt and the shame that comes along with that so many things. And so really, it's about laying the foundation because our kids have so many more years eating without us than they do eating with us, with us controlling the things.
Stephanie Mara 09:14
Oh my gosh, I am loving this idea of laying the foundation. So what have you found are those foundational pieces, or how does a parent start and I want to even preface that of, it's never too late. You know, if a parent is listening to this, and like, oh my gosh, I'm doing all of those things right now. You're doing the best that you could with the awareness that you had. And when you bring in new awareness of Oh, I could facilitate a different relationship with food for myself and my kids, start right now. It's never ever too late. So as someone's listening to this and or maybe they're like, Oh, I'm about to have my first kid or whatever it might be, you know, how do they start to lay that food freedom foundation?
Nicole Cruz 09:59
Yeah, that's such a good point Stephanie too around just the the shame and the guilt that so many of us feel as parents, like there's not enough, you know what they call like, mom guilt and parent guilt in general with all the things and food should definitely not be one of them, especially because you've probably been listening to people who are telling you, right, like buy the granola bar that only has one gram of sugar or no sugar, like sugary cereals, or, you know, whatever the things are, because you want the best for your child, you know, you want them to be healthy. You want them to eat, what mainstream would call healthy foods, right? Like, you want all of that for your child. And so you're trying to set them up for success, just not fully understanding that maybe some of that rigid thinking that's passed down, I don't want to say parents are, you know, creating this rigid thinking it's just a cultural, rigid thinking, right around food actually has potentially harmful consequences, you know. So when you ask about laying that foundation, I mean, there's so many elements. But if we can start with this very basic core philosophy, which is the division of responsibility by Ellyn Satter. And I think that's foundational to our work moving forward and feeding kids. And Ellyn Satter is a registered dietitian and a licensed clinical social worker who really laid the foundation for so many of us to look at the role in family feeding. And what is the parent's responsibility, right? So it's the division of responsibility, what is the parent's responsibility? What is the child's responsibility in the feeding relationship? And so when we talk about the foundation, the reason that this is so important is that as adults, we're able to look at the big picture, we're able to think abstractly, right, we're able to put all these pieces together, whereas children really are often impulsive, they're gonna see something and think oh a brownie looks good, I want it, right? Or I want, you know, another piece of bread, let me have it. And that's perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong with that. However, as adults, we might think, oh, actually I was planning to use that bread for sandwiches this week, or, you know, whatever it might be, so that we're able to kind of consider the whole picture, we're able to consider nutrition in terms of, oh, how do I provide a meal that would be satisfying, right, I probably want to include some protein and fat there, maybe some fiber, whether that's coming from grains, or whether it's coming from produce, like we can think through this and create the supportive environment for children we are, we are making food available. So the parent's job is to set that supportive structure. Like what Ellyn Satter says is the what, when and where of food. So what am I serving, I'm gonna put out you know, pasta, meatballs, tomato sauce, green beans, and some cookies or something, right, so here's this like this, well rounded meal that includes multiple food groups, we're providing a variety of options. The what, right, then the when might be well, every few hours our bodies could use some refueling. So maybe we have you know snack at three o'clock, it makes dinner sense to have dinner between 5:30 and 6:00, you know, so then we're going to provide dinner between 5:30 and 6:00. And the where, let's sit at the kitchen table. Or maybe it's really nice out, let's have family dinner on the patio, whatever it might be. But parents are setting up the structure of the what, when and where. And then we're allowing our children to listen to their body with in that. And that's where the responsibility is on the kids to be able to say, tonight, I really just feel like plain pasta or a pasta with sauce. They don't want the meatballs or the meat sauce or whatever it might be, you know, and I want a cookie. And so I see it is like intuitive eating in that way. What we're really helping adults get back to is listening to and trust their body. For what foods sounds good. Am I hungry? Am I full right now? But we're creating the supportive structure to then allow kids to do that within that structure instead of overwhelming them with just like what do you want, it's a free for all, right? Or, or just graze all day, and then you're not hungry at all by the time it gets to dinner. And we've prepared this meal and we're sitting together and now it's not joyful because the child is not hungry at all and they're annoyed they have to be at the table and they're ruining dinner, you know, it's like all these things. So we're creating the supportive structure and then allowing our children to listen to their bodies within that.
Stephanie Mara 14:30
I love Ellyn Satter's work and I'll also put that in the show notes because I know she's written books and is an amazing resource. I love this idea of what when and where. And it even makes me think of if someone is listening to this right now and realizes, like that's not something that they got as a child you can also start now as an adult. Even beginning now in the Okay, the what the when and the where, and I love that you're framing it as structure. It's not, you know, dieting its rigid, its rules, its regulations. I find that when we shift it to structure, it's like you get to, as you mentioned, go in and out of flow of intuitive eating of like, okay, I had this meal and now if I'm legitimately still hungry, just like a child might be like, Okay, I had that meal, I chose what I thought I wanted in the moment, and I'm still hungry an hour later i's not, no, you can't eat until the next meal. It's, great.! Listen to your body. Absolutely. Go ahead and eat more.
Nicole Cruz 15:31
Yeah, we always want to be flexible with things, you know, I don't want to sound like this is such a rigid rule now that you have to follow and you can't listen to your child without that. You know, there are things in like every child and every family is different. So we want to be mindful of that, too. You know, if your child is never eating meals, but then they're always hungry an hour later, then we want to look at what's going on. Right? We want to assess that. If they're not eating meals, are you putting out foods they enjoy? You know, that's part of it is making sure that we're being thoughtful about our children, not just putting out some foods we know they don't like and then saying, Well, this is what I chose, this is the what, right? We want to be thoughtful about them. What do they like, make sure there's something on the table they do enjoy, make sure there's enough there for them to fill up on. Right? So we want to look at that, or do we need to look at our timing, did we plan a snack or dinner too early, and they're really not hungry. So they're going to be hungry an hour later. Like if there are consistent patterns in that we might want to make some adjustments, you know, and readjust our structure around it, or is your child eating full meals and they're going through a growth spurt, and they're always you know, they're consistently hungry, it's like, well, we can trust that too. And we can put some structure back in place instead of you know, either, no, you absolutely can't eat or just graze all day, we could say, Okay, you're really hungry, let's get a snack out. And let's come sit at the table and eat together or something, you know. And so we can, and I know, this is idealistic in some ways, because we're busy. And I know I'm running into a million different sports practices every afternoon, and barely getting dinner on the table half the time and like, Ahhhh, you know, like, I get that it doesn't have to be perfect. But to just recognize, if we go back down to the core core core, it's allowing your child to listen to their body, to not force them to eat something, and to not cut them off or tell them they've had enough or they can't eat more. Like, that's really what the core of it is, you know, to provide some structure for everybody that might look a little bit different. But to truly trust your child, then to navigate food, you know.
Stephanie Mara 17:39
Yeah. you actually put out a fantastic post the other day that was talking about really noticing as a parent, when you're wanting to tell your child to eat or not eat something to really check in with self first. And I'd love for you to talk more about that of how parents can start to navigate even what is coming up. Because things are gonna come up, of like, Oh, am I doing the right thing? And just like how to even navigate that internal dialogue when your child is actively in their food experimentations.
Nicole Cruz 18:12
You know, so much of this work is about us doing our own work, you know, and so even if you don't have children yet, or anything, it's and you think you might want to and even if you don't, you can heal your relationship for yourself. It's not about your child, right? It's about us creating joy for ourselves. And then, on top of that, really being able to role model and support our children. We're always gonna have stuff, our own stuff coming up in parenting, like, kids bring out that in us even more so right? I think my therapist way back when I was like, you know, relationships, like having a partner brings out more of your stuff. And then kids amplify that, like 100 times over, right, like, all your stuff starts coming up, you know. And so we're always going to have stuff coming up. And our job is to take a look at that when it does come up. And so if you're noticing some sort of internal reaction that you're having some anxiety, some fear, just anything unsettled in your body, often we feel it more in a feeling versus like, before we recognize the thought. So if there's something that feels agitating, anxiety provoking, whatever it might be uneasy in your body, observing your child eat right or when they ask for a piece of candy or when they ask for another snack. It's really important to pause and check in with yourself. What are my thoughts about this? Like, what is it that's coming up for me? What am I thinking is it oh my gosh, that's all they ever want is sweets. Is it, Oh, if they keep, you know, eating like this, all they're going to do is gain weight. Like, we have so much of our own stuff too. Like were you just told, you know, slow down when you eat, you're a slob, like it could be a million different things that were just implanted and we're carrying with us, whether it's from our parents, whether it's from the culture as a whole wherever it might be. And so when we can notice that feeling in our own body, how do we pause and kind of assess what's coming up for me, so then we can move forward, appropriately, right? Like, if it really is actually, I'm concerned my child's going to choke, then I can directly address is my child going to choke and I can keep them safe. Or is it if they eat like that they're gonna get made fun of and everybody's gonna da da da da, like all of this stuff, and then that's okay so my job is to sit with my discomfort, and to allow my child to be who they are, right? To role model eating in a way that that feels good, you know, and to allow my child to have their own experiences with food to explore food. And so there's so many different things that can come up around that if it's that I'm worried that my child's you know, gaining weight, or in a larger body. Again, that's my work to do. That's my work to sit with. Because I want to be able to teach my body, teach my child that there is nothing wrong with their body. And so my job is to sit with that and be okay with their body instead of going into reactive mode. And in no matter what way giving them the signal that something is wrong with their body, that their body does need to be fixed, that it is too big, whatever it might be. So we really need to check in with ourselves, see what's coming up, do our own work around it, so that we can decide, is this a legitimate thing to shift to say something about? Or is it really my own work and sitting with my own discomfort?
Stephanie Mara 21:50
Yeah, I am loving all of this, I find that food and meal times can be such a strong mirror back to ourselves of Oh, wow, let me really look at this reaction that's coming up for me. Because it's an opportunity to explore our own relationship with food, our beliefs, our perspectives, and even things we were taught as kids that maybe aren't a truth anymore, that this is how kind of that generational wound piece can get healed from generation to generation, as you do your inner work, you will be creating a different environment for your kids. And not that, like you mentioned, not that it has to be only for your kids, it gets to be for yourself first and healing your relationship with food, and you will be a role model, not even just for your kids. If you don't even have kids, you will be a real role model for those around you as well that there is a different way to be in relationship with food.
Nicole Cruz 22:46
Absolutely. Like how do we start, you know, shifting this overall this these cultural ideas around food and rigidity and having to control our intake and all of those things. So absolutely, I think we can change it, you know, generationally, with our own children and to role model that for those around us. And, again, I think you hit on a really good point around, you know, doing our own work, so many parents come to me, and they're concerned about their child. And it's not that we don't shift those things at all but so much of it is starting to look at what's coming up for me? What was I told as a child? How do I start to heal that? How do I start to comfort myself when that is coming up? You know, and, and that's what we really have to look at, is what was handed down to me from my parents or my teachers or whoever it might have been what was I given that I've been holding for so long around my own body around food for myself right around distrusting myself and thinking I need these rules or, you know, I have these expectations about how I'm supposed to eat or what that's supposed to look like, or what my body's supposed to be that we have these ideas around that. And then we subconsciously pass that on to our children. So how do we start to look at that for ourselves so that we can kind of stop stop the passing along of some of these, I would consider unhelpful messages.
Stephanie Mara 24:23
Yeah. Something that I explore a lot with those that I work with is exploring the overt messages you received, of what was verbally spoken out loud. And then the covert messages what wasn't spoken out loud. What did you actually witness in your environment? Like, maybe your parents allowed you to have food freedom when you were growing up. But then you witnessed your mom be like, No, I can't eat that. No, I'm not allowed to eat that. No, that's going to affect my body in XYZ ways. That covert message also affected your relationship with your food in your body because this was your mom, like, this is what you witnessed in having a role model to have a relationship with food and body. And so even getting curious about, like you mentioned all the many different messages you received growing up, because it really shaped the kind of relationship you have with your food and body today.
Nicole Cruz 25:19
100% I'm, I'm like exactly that person. I was telling my mom, she knows I talk about her, but I love her to death. But I was that exact person. I mean, my parents didn't know about like family feeding or anything. They just had a variety of foods in the house, they allowed us to eat what we wanted, my mom stayed at home. And so she was able to like cook a family dinner every night, we always sat together, we ate together, but we had, you know, frozen burritos, and you know, sugary cereals. And then we also had, you know, fiber one or Raisin Bran or whatever. Like we had, like this variety of stuff always. And I felt cared for with food I was provided for. And I watched my mom on every single diet under the sun, right, grapefruit diet, cabbage soup diet, weight watchers, you know, and I would go to meetings with her just so she could get weighed, but she never ever, like, talk to me about that. Or, you know, it was none of that. But there was this, it's so interesting to think back to now, because what was imprinted for me was very clearly, women in my family control what they eat to control their body, like it was so clear. I was a child and I knew, that's what I would do when I grew up. Like that's just what it was. That's what I would do. I was never told that. It was never told, like you'll do this someday, too. It was never said to me, but you know, I would watch her like, measure her arms and record it in her book, you know, like, take her, weigh herself, do all of those things. And I really just thought this is what women do. And even when I saw a few women in my life that didn't do that I thought they're lucky. Like, they don't have to do that. But I do. This is how our bodies are, this is what I'll I'll have to do. And my mom would always focus on like her legs, her thighs being large and that sort of thing. And that's, you know, what I always struggled with was my you know, so it's just these things that, like you said, were never directly said to me, but observed all the time. You know, I just always watch that. And I, it's so interesting to me, when I think back about it now through this lens of how I absorbed it and just knew, that's what I'll do. And that's what women do.
Stephanie Mara 27:44
Yeah, and this is such an important conversation, if you are a parent to have with your kids, or even if you are an adult to have with your other friends of what has been a norm that has been set, like really having honest conversations, like if you hang out with your friends, and all you talk about is the diet that you're on, get really curious about that, because it's like, Wow, is this the only way that I've learned how to connect with other individuals, because that was what was role modeled to me. And then with kids, kind of we have to be honest of this is the culture that we live in. And it's unfortunate, and there's a lot of focus on body image and food and restriction and controlling the body. And so that a kid gets to, at such a young age know that they don't have to take that as a truth or a fact that it's like, oh, this is just a part of our culture. But you can kind of say, no, like, I do not want that on my plate. Thank you.
Nicole Cruz 28:44
Yeah, for sure. I literally just had a conversation with a client the other day who's, you know, going to see family friends that she hasn't seen in a while. And the thing that came up was my biggest concern right now is that I always get sucked into these diet talks, because there's a few of the women there that are very much, you know, Oh, you look so good. What are you doing? And all of that. And it's like, okay, so when we got down to the core of it, her fear was, I won't know how to connect with them. I won't be a part of the group. I won't know what to say otherwise. So we really explored like, what are other ways you can connect? You know, let's think about that. What are just some conversations, what are some things you could ask about to them? Like, how can we try to connect in another way and if they're unable to or unwilling to, you can leave the conversation to you know, like, that's okay to to protect yourself in that way. And you can go in with now knowing my fear is I won't be able to connect. Okay, what are other ways I can connect, you know, so we can start to look at what's at the root of that. This is kind of a tangent, a side note, but to what you were saying about just the norms, you know, it reminds we have the same thing with parents that feel like well, they can't just eat a slice of butter, or can't just let them eat ranch with a spoon. And I'm like, okay, I get that. But I totally understand that in what's coming up for you. But, why not? Right? Like, we have these ideas about what is supposed to happen. It's like, why not, though? What if they love Ranch? Why can they not just eat Ranch? Why do we have this idea they can't? But it would be okay, if they ate a cream soup or something, you know, like, that might be okay, but they can't eat Ranch, or they can't eat ketchup and that sort of thing. And so I think sometimes we have to look at all social norms, and really start to question, is that true? Like, is that true they just can't? Or, what if that's they're exploring food, them learning what they like? And, and so often, that's a gateway, right? It's like, oh, they like ketchup. Okay, but if we can allow them to explore that, that might mean they want to dip a french fry in ketchup, they want to dip a chicken nugget. Now when you have plain chicken, they might want to dip plain chicken or a carrot. My kids have dipped carrots in who knows what stuff, right? It's like, yeah, because now they've been free to try food in different ways that we think maybe is not okay, you're not acceptable. But why not? Why do we have these norms around all sorts of food, bodies, ways of eating? And again, typically aren't helpful.
Stephanie Mara 31:32
I love that just challenging all the food norms that like even sitting down and just like journal for yourself around what are the food norms that you've been set up with around what you're supposed to eat at a meal? What time you're supposed to eat? Like all the things that we are taught and really getting curious, is this actually working for me? Is this making me feel really connected to my body, or actually I'm so in these norms, it's making me feel really disconnected from my body. And as you're talking about just these norms, I do want to make sure that we talk about and touch upon sugar, because I think it's such the just the sugar conversation and people believing that they are addicted to sugar. And I'm saying that in quotations. And what I have often found is that the more that someone is actually able to eat sugar in a very calm regulated state it kind of takes the drama out of it, it's not as alluring. And I would just love to hear you talk more about this, because I know I've seen a lot of posts around how to navigate kids and sugar. And yeah, I would just love to hear more.
Nicole Cruz 32:44
Ah, so many thoughts about sugar. Like you said, I have a whole course on sugar alone called Making Sense of Sweets, because it's such a hot topic for parents. I joke like the two things, right, that I always hear about are like, how do I get my kids to eat more vegetables? And how do I get my kids to eat less sugar? Like those are the two big concerns from parents because of the culture that we live in. Right? So I just want to start even by saying it's normal to like sugar. Like, that's okay, we've labeled it is this bad thing and it's okay, so I often challenge parents like, what if your child loved broccoli? Would you be so concerned because they loved broccoli, right? Like, it's again, just getting back to thinking through some of these things that we just have this automatic response to. Something's wrong, they shouldn't, I have to fix it. It's too much. It's whatever it is this messaging. But really, is that the case? You know, I look at my husband, and he would much rather eat salty chips than sweets. And I could care less about salty chips, and I would much rather have my chocolate, you know. And so some of us just have different preferences. And so I just want to lay that out as kind of the foundation that it's normal for some kids to like sugar more than others, because we all have preferences around food. And that's okay. So there's typically just this normal desire or not, Ellyn Satter also says like sugar is easier to like, sweets are easier to like than, say, a bitter taste or something that some vegetables might have. So knowing too, that things that are sweet, packaged foods, that sort of thing. They're consistent, they're safer, that makes kids feel more comfortable. They're easier to like. So that's also just normal, you know, so, so those things are normal. So we often have this kind of normal desire or not for sweets. But then what happens is, we get worried about that. And so I talk a lot about energy, we end up actually creating more energy around the sweets. And it doesn't always start with Oh, I see my kid eat sweets and I get worried it could also be your pediatrician says, limit sugar, don't serve juice, don't do whatever. And so you're getting this messaging all over. So it might not even be you see this from your child, it might just be, I need to limit sugar, because that's the message I'm told, right? Like, sugar is bad, it's addictive. It's all these things, I need to limit it. So what happens though, is we get into this mode of I need to control and limit sugar, or our kids are hearing that other places as well. And we create more energy around it. And what the research shows and I think we all can kind of understand it too is the forbidden fruit effect is that the more that we limit something, the more desirable it becomes, the more restricted something feels the more desirable, it becomes. And that's human nature, you know. So if, if there's a toy in the room, and one kid is playing with it, your kid is going to want that toy because the one kid has it, the minute you figure it out, you hand your kid the toy, they're like, I don't want it anymore. And they're off to play with something else, right? We've, as parents as, as adults, just observing this of children, we've probably seen some sort of scenario like that, right? So what's forbidden, we're more attracted to and we want more of, so it's normal for kids to like sweets, but often that's amplified because it feels like it's something that they're not supposed to have or that they have to earn. And we do this with things like bribing them, right? Like you need to finish your dinner. If you want dessert, you need to eat your vegetables. If you want dessert, take two more bites. If you want dessert, it's whatever it might be no cookies unless you eat your your dinner. Right? So we set up this dynamic constantly. And I just think about it. What if I sat here and I was like, No, you need to eat your cookies, you have to eat your cookies, right? Like, maybe you'd still want a cookie because you like cookies, but they probably would be less desirable if we were saying that. And that's often the dynamic that we set up with, we make other food feel less desirable. Because we're saying you have to eat it, you have to take bites. But do we ever tell our kids, they have to finish their dessert, or they need to at least try a bite of their ice cream? Like it's usually we don't do those things. And so now we're creating this greater dynamic around food. Instead of having what you know, you and I would call more like a neutral relationship with food, right? Where food is just food and there's no good or bad food. Yes, it all has different nutrient profiles. You know, just like a strawberry has different nutrients than broccoli does like sweets, typically, you know, cookies have different nutrients than an apple like that's okay. But we can feel about them the same, it doesn't mean we have to like all foods equally, but we can feel the same about them. And we can feel the same about ourselves for choosing to eat them. So I think I mean, that's a lot about sweets. But I think what we're trying to get to is go back to how do I create a more neutral relationship with sugar so it's not elevated on this platform because I'm telling them, they can't have it or they have to earn it in some way and how do I also create a desire to eat other foods by not forcing, etc?
Stephanie Mara 38:11
Yeah, I've talked to a lot of parents that are always amazed as they start to practice just normalizing that their kid is allowed to have sweets. Go ahead, have that ice cream. Yeah, let's go eat that cupcake. Let's go, you know, have that birthday cake. That they find that the kid eats a couple of bites and then they're like, Yeah, I'm good. Like, I want to go play now. It's like, Okay, go for it. Because it's so neutral. It's not like you were talking about this extra energy on it. And I think that that's a place where even as adults, if you have noticed, there's a lot of energy around sugar, beginning even for yourself to neutralize it. Put a piece of candy at every single one of your meals. Really say this is allowed whenever I want to. And it just becomes this like, I can have it whenever I want do I want it right now? Is that going to feel like the most supportive thing to me? Is that like how I want to feel in my body after I eat that thing? You know, it just becomes more curious. Instead of like, oh, I have to eat this because I've told myself, I can't ever have it again.
Nicole Cruz 39:19
Yeah, absolutely. And I think what you're describing a couple of things. One is as parents do start to take this approach, I want everyone to be mindful, similar to how we often have to go through our own relationship with food, that we might find ourselves eating more of those foods at first that have been restricted. And that would be expected for your child to so often it's like, right, what you just described is kind of down the line of, oh, I'm not interested. For some parents, that happens almost immediately. They're like, I cannot believe that they actually don't care that much when I'm just like, Sure, go ahead, have more. They're like, wait, what? My kids like, really? Oh, wait, I don't really want it. You know, it happens almost immediately. However, depending on your child's personality, how, how long maybe you've had this dynamic around food, how ingrained it is, it might take longer. So it might, you might find that as you give more freedom, they take more freedom. And they're even testing that, like, Is this for real? Are they really gonna let me have this much and, and that can take some time. And then slowly, you see that one time that they don't finish the cookie or they say, No, I'm good or you know, whatever it might be. And then we see those instances start to build more and more and more as they become really feeling safe, in a sense of like, I'm allowed to have that food, it's not going anywhere, I don't have to eat it all. And often we think permission to eat is going to mean, they're just going to keep eating, keep eating, keep eating. And I actually see that permission to eat means I have permission to stop eating, because I know it's not going anywhere. And so that's what we're really giving them is permission to stop when they've had enough or for yourself to stop when you've had enough. Because you know, it's not off limits, you know, you can have sweets again, in an hour or tomorrow or, you know, whenever it might be. And so it's really that the freedom brings the ability to say, Do I really want to have this? And that's what we want to give to our child too. Is that check in around am I still hungry? Or does that sound good? Or does this still taste good? Because if they're in a mode of I better eat as much as I can right now, or I'm never allowed to have it. How do I get it? They're trying to sneak it they're trying to eat as much as possible. They're in reactive mode. They're totally disconnected from do I want this right now? Right? But there has to be that again, foundational safety there that I'm allowed to have this and I'm going to get it again and again. And there's nothing wrong with me for choosing to have it.
Stephanie Mara 41:59
Yeah, I kind of think of the imagery of a bell curve of like, okay, if you've said no all the time, of course, they're going to swing to the opposite side at first. And that part, I'm so glad you brought that in, that that part of the journey is actually really, really important. And even saying, yeah, it's okay that you ate that much today. Let's check in with your body. How did it feel to eat that much of that thing today? So that you're bringing even in that body wisdom of you're not doing anything wrong or bad right now, so that they get to find, you know, that kind of middle way with it of they get to decide what they want their relationship with that food to be like.
Nicole Cruz 42:37
Yeah, for sure. And, and that's a normal thing with kids, even my children who have had, I would say like a relatively balanced, you know, upbringing with sweets and stuff, in terms of having access to them have still had moments where it was exciting. There was one particular moment where we were camping, and there was like a little festival type thing going on down the way that had food trucks. And we've been talking all trip about okay, we'll make it there. One day, we'll walk over and we'll get like the shaved ice and do that. And at the same time that we were camping with family and my aunt brought out doughnuts earlier in the day, and my kids probably ate candy at my mom's you know, and I don't even know all the things that they probably ate that day. By the time we went there, my son still really wanted to get this shaved ice. And he walked back going, Oh, my belly hurts off. I don't feel good. And that's okay. What do you think happened? Right? And so when you brought up that curiosity, how can we be curious for ourselves? And then how can you be curious with our children too around instead of saying, Oh, well, you shouldn't have eaten eaten that much, or a sugar is going to make you feel sick if you eat that much sugar, right, like demonizing foods, making them feel bad. Just recognizing that's a really normal thing to have happen. I know, to this day, there are times I eat a few bites too many or whatever. And I'm like, oh, no, I don't feel great, or Oh, my stomach's a little heavy, right? Like it just like, doesn't feel great. Like that's normal. So instead of beating ourselves up, instead of beating our children up around it, how do we just help them kind of gently connect the dots if that's what's happening, you know, we were able to look at, well, you've had a lot of similar foods today. If you ate 10 bowls of broccoli, you probably would have felt like crap, too, right? It's like, you've had a lot of similar foods today. That shift of you have had a lot of fluids. So now that's all sitting in your belly. Like there's a lot of volume, there's a lot of similar food, like, all of this is happening. And so, okay, you know, you don't feel great, let's go back. Maybe you want to rest for a little bit. You'll feel better in a in just a little while, as long as it takes for your body to process through that. It's like no big deal, you know? And so how can we just help them see that so that next time, they might make a different choice, you know, or maybe not, but like, this is their relationship with food too. And that's not ours to control all the time. It's our job to allow them to have these experiences, help them learn how their body feels without lecturing or cheating or, you know, trying to drill it into them, but allowing them to have the supportive experience and to navigate through them without shame or judgment.
Stephanie Mara 45:13
You know, what I really hear you bringing in is a lot of compassion, of just, I find that when someone has maybe received a message at a really young age, that they were bad for eating something, it becomes I'm a bad person. And when I eat this food, I, it becomes a story about who I am not just oh, I ate that food, huh. Like, that was an interesting experience I had in my body and it felt a particular way. And we don't even have to even label Oh, a tummy ache as bad. It's Oh, look at how your body's talking to you. It's talking to you really clearly with a tummy ache right now. And just like that peace of curiosity and just compassion of I find that it creates a sense of choice. Like you said, they may choose to do that again, and learn from that experience again, and they may choose something next time to do something different, but they have the choice, because it doesn't mean anything about who they are as a person.
Nicole Cruz 46:14
Absolutely. And I think it goes all different ways. I actually just wrote an email about this this week that, you know, we were going, my kids had the opportunity to go play at SoFi Stadium, I'm in southern California, to play flag football there and to get on the field. And, you know, we weren't allowed to bring food into the stadium. And because it was like a special event thing for the kids, they weren't selling food either. And it you know, we were going to be in there for hours, and you couldn't leave and come back in or any of it. And so we had to have an early dinner, and we grabbed sandwiches and we ate in the car in the parking lot before we went in and one of my kids was just like, No, I'm not hungry, I'm not hungry. And after kind of just describing the situation to him, like, Okay, this is what's gonna happen though. Remember, we're not allowed to bring, like going through what I just told you, we're not allowed to have bring food in, etcetera, you might be hungry. So we're gonna be in there for a few hours. I know you're not hungry right now but you might just want to try...nope, nope. And that's where it comes down to, okay, going back to those foundations, we don't force our kids to eat right. And we don't tell them like they're not allowed to eat more or, you know, again, we can have some structure around, it's not snack time yet. It'll be snack soon, or whatever it might be. But essentially, we're allowing them to listen to their body within the structure. And so there's the no forcing as well. And, and that was a learning experience for him. Because by the end, he was starving. But it was okay. You know, like, that's what, I don't need to control that experience. Because now next time, he might remember that and decide, oh, yeah, I'm not hungry right now. But I'm going to be really hungry. If I don't, just like as an adult, if I'm not hungry right now. But I have clients for the next two or three hours, and I know I ate quite a while back, I might need to have a snack or a meal before I go into this next row of clients. Because I've learned that if I don't do that, I don't feel well, I can't concentrate in my sessions, right? It's disruptive. And so we want to allow kids to have those experiences too. Because us lecturing them is just going to make them not want to do the thing even more. They're gonna feel annoyed, right? We're also like saying, I know better what needs to happen with your body than you do. Like we're sending all of this messaging instead of just saying, here's an experience, let's find out how it goes, you know, and we're guiding them. But at the end of the day, it's their choice.
Stephanie Mara 48:38
Yeah, I love that you're bringing in this nuance of hunger that sometimes you may eat because you feel true physical hunger and stomach gurgles or all lightheadedness, or all the things that your unique body tells you that you're hungry, and sometimes that it's going to look like oh, I need to eat protectively to take care of my body. Because I know if I don't eat right now, I'm gonna get super, super hungry. And even having that experience, just hearing that I found this great opportunity for your kiddo to say, Oh, it's okay to get really super hungry. Because I see so many adults that I work with have a lot of fear around feeling hungry for various of different reasons that can pop up for many different reasons. Even as you know, you referenced on your website socio economic factors of you know, the way that your parents, I've had individuals, you know, where their parents went through certain depressions in their lifetimes and that kind of relationship with food that got passed down from generation to generation. So there's a lot of different reasons why hunger, fear can come up and giving that opportunity to experience hunger and say, Oh, I'm okay. Everything's gonna be alright. This is just a sensation in my body and hunger increases and it decreases and it's Oh, I really know, at some point when food is available, again that I really need to go choose this.
Nicole Cruz 50:05
Absolutely, I think it goes back to what you were saying before, right? Like, we don't have to label it as a bad thing. It's just an experience. It's a body sensation. It's giving us the sign, you know, my body needs fuel, I need to eat something. And that's okay. And of course, we feel like both of us, you know, working with so many clients with disordered eating and I want to be clear that we're not suggesting you try to make yourself overly hungry right? Like, when we're saying it's not bad. It's where is that coming from though? Right? Is it just like, Oh, I didn't plan well, and next time I want to plan different, or is it coming from a fear of, I can't eat too much or, you know, like, I'm going to be, I can't be full, being full is bad, right. But I'd rather be hungry, like, where is that coming from? Is it coming from a place of fear? Or is it coming from just a place of, well, this was circumstance and this happened, and I have access to food and I'll be able to feed myself again. And I'm okay. You know, I'm okay.
Stephanie Mara 51:04
Yeah. I appreciate you bringing that piece in of you don't have to purposefully like, Oh, I'm going to try and make myself super hungry. You are naturally going to get hungry every single day for the rest of your life. And you get to notice your reactions to feeling the experience of hunger in your body. And what does that bring up for you?
Nicole Cruz 51:24
Yeah, I do think that's a really good point, like you said, because I also have a lot of clients who are, you know, are scared of feeling that hunger at all. And so they're constantly eating as a way to prevent ever feeling hungry at all. And then that doesn't feel good, either, you know, to feel like food feels compulsive in that way. And they're eating out of fear as well. So I think it's, it's both it's looking at, like, Where's this coming from? And how can I trust that I can be okay, feeling hungry? And how can I trust I can be okay, feeling full as well. And neither one is bad. You know, they're just my body giving me information.
Stephanie Mara 52:00
Yeah, it's so nuanced and multi layered. And I want to make sure that we leave time for you to share how people can keep in touch with you, where they can learn from you. I know you offer different offerings and programs that I would just love to hear more about your work.
Nicole Cruz 52:17
Oh, well, thank you. And I would love to connect with anyone who is interested or feels like some of this information resonates or they're just feeling like they need some more support. And I do have multiple ways to do that. You can find me on Instagram at @nicolecruzrd. And I also have a free Facebook group called Joyful Eating for your Family, where I am popping in with information. And it's also a community where you're, you know, hearing other people's questions and learning from how other people are navigating in certain scenarios. So both of those are avenues to get in touch. I also have a couple of courses that are self paced, but that I also do provide support through so they're not just go buy the course and you don't hear from me anymore. They're to give you that self paced time because I know as busy as we often are as parents that it can be hard to show up at a certain time. So you get the information. But you also have the opportunity to ask personal questions and have me give you feedback on your different scenarios and things. So I have one specific to sugar, which is called Making Sense of Sweets, and one called Feed your Family with Confidence that really walks through how to raise an intuitive eater, as well as how to, you know, drop the pressure, stop fighting about food, really just help your child have a healthy relationship with food and help your family have less stress and more joy with meal times and feeding as well. So those are the two main courses and I do offer one on one intuitive eating and parent nutrition coaching as well. And if you go to my website, you can always book a free intro call just to see kind of what avenue would be the best approach for you as well.
Stephanie Mara 53:55
Yeah, your work is so important and needed in the world. And just thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and your presence today. I really appreciate everything that you shared and to those who are listening, if you have any questions, I will drop both of our contact information in the show notes. And thank you for being here today and looking forward to connecting with you all again soon. Bye!
Keep in touch with Nicole here:
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