What's Fueling your Eating Disorder? Diet Culture, Body Image Pressure, Religion, and Trauma
Welcome to the Satiated Podcast where we explore physical and emotional hunger, satiation and healing your relationship with your food and body. I'm your host Stephanie Mara Fox, your Somatic Nutritional Counselor. Iâ€TMm thrilled to introduce you all today to Asher Seruya. Asher is a fat, queer, Jewish psychotherapist, illustrator, and writer based in New York who unpacks eating disorder recovery, weight stigma, Jewish identity, and complex trauma. Their clinical approach centers the Health at Every Size paradigm and encourages exploration of the impact of cultural and individual trauma on our self-perception. Their practice is guided by compassion, validation, and reducing toxic shame. They’ve been featured in Conferences, Courses, and Continuing Education such as Every Body is Beautiful, Braving, and Wellseek. Welcome Asher!
Asher Seruya 00:58
Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here.
Stephanie Mara 01:00
I'm so excited to dive in with you today. And I would love to first start with hearing a little bit more about you and your background and how you got into this powerful work.
Asher Seruya 01:11
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's often the first question with podcasts. And I think it's an important one, because my background is the very reason that I'm here and I'm doing this work. As you mentioned in my intro, I have varying identities that have impacted my relationship with myself and my body and food. And you know, I developed an eating disorder at a pretty young age for many different reasons, some of which I came to at different points in time of my learning, you know, I think initially, I thought I was mainly like a binge eater. And then I learned more about what causes binging and I was like, Oh, wait, maybe I have anorexia. And then I learned more about ADHD. And I was like, Oh, wait, maybe I have ARFID. So a lot of kind of unpeeling or unpacking and peeling away the layers. But in terms of, you know, to directly answer your question as to how I got into this work, I got into it, because it was something that I was struggling with and navigated myself. And when I was able to sort of get my own treatment, and approach some semblance of recovery, because I think that's kind of a moving target for a lot of us. You know, I realized that a lot of the reasons why I had been suffering was because I didn't understand how my identities were impacting the way I moved through the world. And once I started to see that, and also understand how much my trauma background was wrapped up in my eating disorder, it kind of dawned on me like, oh, shit, like the field is really not looking at this in the most expansive, complex, nuanced way. And if I had gotten, you know, more typical treatment, I probably wouldn't be here right now. You know, I saw someone who wasn't specialized in eating disorders, but who really worked with me on radical self acceptance. And I found HAES and intuitive eating and all that stuff on my own, and my, you know, first therapist really encouraged me, and then by the time I was, you know, ready to graduate college, I was like, you know, I gone and done a writing degree and I was like, what am I going to do with this? I think I want to be a therapist now. So then I pivoted and went into social work. And, you know, I use my writing degree, in the meantime, to do social media work with people in this space that that I, you know, respected and whose work that I valued. And yeah, and then then I've been practicing officially for, I guess, almost three years now.
Stephanie Mara 03:24
Yeah, I really hear the ebb and flow of uncovering layer by layer what was really occurring. And I'm really excited that you pointed that out, because we have this like, societal construct of what an eating disorder is supposed to even look like. And it's actually very restrictive definition that doesn't encompass the complexity, and all the layers that go into kind of figuring out what is going on in my relationship with my food and my body.
Asher Seruya 03:56
Absolutely. I mean, I can't even tell you how many conversations I sit with clients just talking about how ridiculous the DSM even is. And you know, that most people I know, I'm sure most people you know, when they engage with eating disorders, they run the gamut of behaviors, you know, like we might rely on certain behaviors more than others. We might go through phases with certain behaviors. But the fact of the matter is that most of us jump all around the board and to subtype someone so specifically, I think it can create a lot of impostor syndrome around eating disorders. Anorexia, in particular, I think, is one that we see, especially around the weight stigma conversation, right? I can't even tell you how many fat patients who absolutely have anorexia, you know, absolutely are engaging in restricted behaviors, but because they're in fat bodies, or because they have a reflex binge from these restrictive moments they believe themselves to be out of control binge eaters, you know, and it's such a warped concept and it's not warped in the sense that, you know, how did they get there? It's warped in the sense that our culture is extraordinarily warped and that's how you come to that conclusion like, well, I couldn't have anorexia because like, I'm not emaciated. That's not what anorexia looks like, right? I mean, the fact that we even have the label atypical anorexia, I'm using air quotes here, because it's ridiculous. You know, it really shows the weight of the problem, no pun intended.
Stephanie Mara 05:18
Yeah, I completely agree with you. You actually put out a really great post recently on the difference between an objective binge and a subjective binge, and I'd love to hear you talk more about that here.
Asher Seruya 05:29
Yeah, absolutely. It's something that I started realizing sort of as I was describing that, oh, shit. Am I really binger? Or am I just binging in response to the restriction? Right, as I started to put that together, both in my personal experience, and clinically, of course, what I started to realize was like, wait a second, this framing doesn't make any sense if really, and truly this is nourishment after prolonged undernourishment, you know, and that could be I didn't eat enough this weekend, or I haven't eaten enough for 10 years, because I've been dieting, right, that can look lots of different ways is this really a binge, because if my body's not getting what it needs, and then my body forces me to get what it needs, through what I might feel in my mind, and my body is compulsive, it really and truly is the safety belt that's kicking in, but saying to you, Hey, I'd like to wake up tomorrow morning after we go to bed tonight. So we're going to eat something. And there's something really beautiful I think about that switch and framing when we're able to let our brains go there, because there's so much fatphobia wrapped up in that, that it can be hard to accept it. But I think when we're able to do that, and see like, oh, shit, this thing that I hold so much shame about this thing that maybe even pushed me into treatment, because that happens a lot. I'm sure you've seen this, that the binge is what brings people in, but the restriction is really, you know, the root of the issue. So this thing that I've you know, demonized, hated, been, you know, so ashamed of is actually the thing that has kept me alive and kept me here. And is proof that my body knows what the fuck it's doing. And it's kind of wild when you when you can, you know, reframe it like that and flip it.
Stephanie Mara 06:57
Yeah, I know, another practitioner has once redefined it as protective eating, instead of continuing to call it binge eating.
Asher Seruya 07:05
I love that.
Stephanie Mara 07:06
Yeah. I really appreciated that reframe as well, because it is protective eating. Where as I think you describe like an objective eating a binge eating experience, it's more like, hey, here's the, like, quote unquote, criteria around what a binge eating experience is. But what if that binge is actually the thing that's keeping you alive? How could we continue to define that as a binge that's, like, quote, unquote, harming you.
Asher Seruya 07:35
Pathology.
Stephanie Mara 07:35
Yeah.
Asher Seruya 07:36
Right. Exactly. Like we can still describe it. And you know, obviously, there are consistencies, and how a lot of people experience eating a larger amount of food that is comfortable for them, right, like many of us can describe sort of the, the fallout of that, right. But it does the driver behind the behavior, I think is so important. And that's not to say that like, oh, maybe you did eat enough, you know, years prior this weekend, whatever. And you're still binging right, that does happen. But you know, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I think it's important to be able to discern, like, is my body just trying to make up for what I missed? Or is something else going on here? Am I maybe not sure how to cope with something that's coming up for me emotionally? You know, if I've been triggered, am I just looking for stimulation, and this feels like the right move? You know, there are lots of reasons why we might binge, but, you know, I think that a big portion of it, because we live in the world that we live in, which is very diet culture, and very, you know, sort of restrictive glorification of restrictive eating, it creates this context in which most of the time I think our binges are really in response to just not getting enough.
Stephanie Mara 08:39
Yeah, and underlying a lot of this is what you've pointed to already is this weight stigma. Obviously, there can be so many different factors, that's one of many is that there is this weight stigma in our culture, that we have to look a certain way that fuels our eating behavior. And you know, I know that a lot of what you unpack is kind of this, you know, body and fat liberation. And we'd love to hear more of your thoughts on just like, what is it because I think a lot of individuals feel very confused. And I know I get into a lot of conversations with those that I work with that feel like oh, well, when I am body liberated, I'll never have a hard body image day ever again. That's not necessarily true.
Asher Seruya 09:28
That's not at all true. Yeah. It's a very common misconception, though. Like I even I made a post about it a little while back, because it was something that was coming up so often in my sessions, you know, people would say to me, like, well, I don't like my body, like, I'm neutral about it, like fine, you know, I'm okay with it. But like, I don't love it and like, I don't think I ever will. And I look at them, and I was like, that's okay, like, that's totally fine. You know, the goal here isn't to love your body. The goal is to be able to exist in it without hating it actively. That's the goal. You know, and sometimes we have those moments and I think its really about thinking, let me back up a second. It's often about really understanding the complexity of body image and how the brain processes our body image. Right. So I can't recall the exact stat. But there's some research that suggests that body image is processed in like six plus areas of the brain. And in other words, it's a very complicated experience, right. And I often will describe the experience you've probably had and other people you work with have probably had where, you know, say, you, you get all dressed up at the beginning of the day, you've put on a great outfit that you love, you feel really comfortable in it, you're like, yes, I look great. Let me go out, right. And you're walking in a whatever Starbucks and all of a sudden, you capture image in the window, and you're fucking horrified. Now, what happened between leaving your apartment and going to Starbucks? Nothing, except that you were exposed to the world, and maybe some triggers, and et cetera, et cetera, right. So in other words, your body can be exactly the same from moment to moment. And you can feel completely differently about it, which also means that your body could be different moment to moment, and you could potentially still feel okay about it. And I think that's a really big like, aha moment for people too. Because most people can say, yes, I've had that experience where I feel okay, and then all of a sudden, I don't. And then it's about thinking about, well, what what triggered that, like, what was part of the process of your mind kind of shifting? And that can be different for everybody. You know, I think, in my personal experience, it happens a lot, you know, when I am perceiving body judgment from others, whether or not it's actually happening, but you know, you can see it in people's eyes, you can kind of see it in people's body language, you know, and I think too fat people develop a hyper vigilance around that how other people react to our bodies. So sometimes you might be reading into something that isn't there. But regardless, the experience that people have, when they're in larger bodies, and they're trying to navigate this work is I think very, there are of course commonalities across the board, right. And when you're in a larger body, and the world is actively hostile towards it, it can make things complicated when we can sort of come to terms with the fact like, Oh, my body image isn't actually 100% moderated by what my physicality looks like, and how I feel about that. It's actually moderated by all of these other variables, and what are the variables that impact me the most, in my experience, you know, it's been other people looking at my body, and commenting on my body, immediately, I will feel negatively about it. Even if it's not body stuff, say I have a conflict with my partner, immediately negative body image, say I haven't been nourishing adequately negative body image, like, it pops up, you know, and I like to look at it as a messenger that a need is not being met, because that's usually what it is something feels icky, something feels sticky, and it has to be addressed. And it's easy to project that onto our bodies to project the problem onto our bodies, because we have this idea that we can change our bodies, quote, unquote, fix them, you know, have control over them, but we can't, which you and I, of course, know that but, you know, it's one of those things like, if the issue is on me, at least I can fix it, you know, whereas if the, if my body image has been triggered by, say, a conflict with my mother, well there's nothing I can do about that. You know, so I think a lot of ways it becomes not only an easier explanation, just because of the culture that we live in, but it's also it becomes something that we feel we can fix if we look at it in that way that our body is the problem.
Stephanie Mara 13:40
Yes, yes. I love how you are also pointing to, and this is something that I kind of also teach those that I work with, is starting to see that when body image concerns come up starting to experience it as interpretive instead of literal. And what I mean by that is that we can utilize the difficult body image moment or day as information from our body. Either there that a need isn't being met. I'm dysregulated, I've moved into the sympathetic nervous system. I'm not feeling safe. I'm upset actually, about something totally that happened...
Asher Seruya 13:47
Completely different. Yeah.
Stephanie Mara 14:15
And in different parts of the day, or even different parts of the week, and my body...
Asher Seruya 14:22
Different part of a life.
Stephanie Mara 14:23
Yeah. So my body is still holding on to it. And this particular day, it got brought up and because I still don't know what to do about it, I'm gonna focus on my body image.
Asher Seruya 14:34
Right? Absolutely. I mean, you know, we have research that suggests that our bodies remember anniversaries, even if we aren't conscious of them, right? And so that absolutely can trigger a negative body image and you might have no idea why it's happening. And of course, the easy thing to say, Oh, well, my pants aren't fitting right. And it's like, well, that might be true. But what's the bigger picture here? What else is going on? And you may not be conscious of what else is going on. And I think that's another thing too, you know, a lot of the work that I do as a therapist is to dig and understand and interpret right? And also, sometimes we just don't know. We just don't know why we feel the way we do sometimes. And regardless of whether or not we know why we feel the way that we do, we can still take care of ourselves in that feeling. And I think no matter what, that is always going to be a more sustainable productive approach to negative body image and body image distress.
Stephanie Mara 15:27
Yeah, and I know that we originally connected, speaking of like anniversaries and specific dates, is you put out a post of you don't need to fast on Yom Kippur for the Jewish holiday that just passed in September. And so you know, I've talked a little bit around my background being Jewish here on this podcast, and how that has affected my own relationship with food. And I would love to just like touch upon what you have found of this kind of crossover of, you know, eating disorders, diets, religion, because I think that there is such an entanglement and all of that I even found a really cool article recently that I can put in the show notes of how much overlap there are between like diets being like a religion.
Asher Seruya 16:14
Yeah, Christy Harrison has a great episode on foods like about that. The religion of diet culture with Alan Levinovitz, I used to work for her. That's why I know. But yeah, and the parallels between religion and food and pleasure and all of these things, right, so intermingled, and obviously some of that is from the perspective of like, puritanical Christianity, right? Because we live in, in sort of a Christian hegemony, right. But as you pointed out, you and I are Jewish, and we have a different experience. And I think the experience that seems to be common among many of us, is that we have this dichotomy of food as love and food as control. And for any of listeners out there, if you're Jewish, I'm sure you know that, you know, food is a big part of our culture, like huge, like, every holiday has specific food assigned to it, you know, and it's very meaningful and symbolic and like, it's not just like, they picked it at random, it's like, no, it means things. And, you know, our food is also very much informed by our diasporic experiences, too. So there's a lot of stuff wrapped up in in the kinds of food that we eat, as well as poverty and displacement. You know, a lot of the foods that we eat are like, like, like gefilte fish, as much as we make fun of gefilte fish, gefilte fish literally fueled those of our ancestors who were in Eastern Europe, you know, so there's so many overlaps. And you know, the post that you're referencing, is one that I try to put out every year in some way, shape, or form, because it's something that I felt was very liberating. And also as a larger commentary on like, what it means to be Jewish in the sense that like, you get to decide what it means to be Jewish, you get to decide what your relationship with your Jewishness looks like, with your God looks like if that's what you know, your relationship with Jewishness includes your spirituality, right. And for me, fasting has never been a spiritual experience, it's been a restrictive experience, it's been an experience of control, it has felt much more like Christian hegemony than anything I was ever taught in Jewish life. And so for me, and then you also have the Pikuachnefesh, which is valuing human life above all else. And to me, having that as like, my primary focus at all times means that if I have an issue fasting, whatever that issue is, I don't have to do it. And not only do I not have to do it, but to not do it and to do the thing that is more supportive for me and my health is the mitzvah, it is not a mitzvah to do something that is going to actively harm you. That is not what our relationship with God is meant to be. Our relationship with our spirituality isn't meant to be. We don't function with God, the way that that Christians do. We have a relationship with God, a conversation with God. That's what Judaism is about, in my opinion. And when I say God, that's very interchangeable with just like higher power, because, you know, I don't know, God, what is God who knows?
Stephanie Mara 19:08
Yeah, and to anyone who's listening, you know, I think that what you're pointing to is also when you are healing your relationship with food, I think there's some exploration around how has potentially religion played a role in my comfortability in following a diet? Because if you grew up in an environment where there was right and wrong, and then you don't know how to take care of your body, and it was never taught to you how to slow down and listen to it, here comes this diet that feels very familiar of what you grew up in. And I think that there's some sense of relearning that you get to trust your body, but also how you interact with whatever religion is part of your life also has to be something that nourishes you, whether you believe in a God or a higher power or whatever it is that ultimately spiritually serves you. Like, is it lighting you up and it's making you feel freer in your life? Or does it feel like it's shutting you down where you want to go towards food? Because the expectations and the standards have gotten so high for you in your life, that you don't even feel free to live your life.
Asher Seruya 20:23
Mmhmm. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, then the other piece of this that I'm still unpacking, and it's complicated. But I think the other big piece of this is that in many ways, I feel and believe that Jewish American dieting and food control is a response to attempting assimilation. It's a way to try and grab whiteness in a lot of ways. If we think about like, the thin ideal being rooted in anti blackness, which it is right and anti black racism, when we think about what would happen to somebody's body, for example, after generations and generations and generations of starvation and expulsion, right? What you and I both know, genetically, what happens, our propensity for putting on weight is going to go up because it is it is a biological imperative to do so. Right. It's how we survive. And so what's resulted is that the Jewish community, in my opinion, is somewhat predisposed to fatness like many marginalized communities, not because there's something wrong with us, but because we have been able to be resilient through all of these experiences, and it has traveled down through the DNA, right. And then you have this complicated relationship of Jews and whiteness, especially in America, in the United States. And in many ways, especially Jews, who are more white passing who, you know, you wouldn't be able to like clock as a Jew, so to speak for Jews listening, you know what I mean. I think there is also an attempt, then to grab it, whatever we can, in terms of characteristics of whiteness, right? So that could be financial. Right? We could see that a lot in in wealthier Jews. I don't know if that you've had that experience, but I certainly have. And I think dieting is another one, body size, trying to shrink trying to stay small, which considering our history of starvation is is almost like spitting in the face of our ancestors, in my opinion. You know, like, I'm not trying to pass dispersions on anybody.
Stephanie Mara 22:31
I really understand. Yeah, I totally get what you're saying.
Asher Seruya 22:34
Yeah. And so it really feels like in a lot of ways that Jewish, Jewish women in particular, because women tend to, cis women tend to be most targeted by diet culture. But of course, that's changing. You know, Jewish women in particular, have used dieting as a way to maintain or to, to grab at whiteness and power. And so for me, when I work with people in the Jewish community, I do drive this point home, because in a lot of ways, I think eating disorder recovery is about coming back home to ourselves, whoever that is. And for Jews, I think a lot of us have rejected our Jewishness, in some way, shape or form, we have tried to separate ourselves from it for safety, like it's absolutely a trauma response is absolutely understandable. And it has consequences. And the consequences are that you are very far removed from your culture, your people, you know, just the intangible connection to your ancestors, which does exist, you know, we have research that shows that it exists. And by embracing our full Jewishness, I think we also can let go of this, this attempt at assimilation, this attempt at being in a body that was never ours to begin with, that, you know, and the body that we do have, is in and of itself, a representation of all of our ancestral resiliency in a lot of ways. And when we look at it in that framing, it's a lot harder to be mad at our bodies.
Stephanie Mara 24:03
Yeah, yeah. I think an interesting, for those who are listening, experiment or self research, I think is more of what I'm trying to say to do...
Asher Seruya 24:13
I love that health research.
Stephanie Mara 24:14
Is to go to your family and ask them, if you don't know already, what your family's history is. Yes, because sometimes you might feel so confused why is my body holding on to weight and the I don't even love the term like holding on to weight because that gives like the onus that it's like your fault, but...
Asher Seruya 24:36
And it also implies that like healing trauma causes weight loss, which it does not.
Stephanie Mara 24:41
Absolutely but you know, if you're curious about let's say more, why does my body express itself in this particular way a little bit better. But you know, it's just getting curious of like, what is in my history? What was I born into? What is my body holding on to from my family's past and it's trauma that's been passed down from generation to generation. And I know that especially with all of the individuals I've worked with, with a Jewish background have a ton of trauma in their family history. And so it really isn't your fault that you find yourself in certain food and body behaviors because this has been playing out for centuries in my family.
Asher Seruya 25:22
Right. Another thing that a colleague of ours, Rachel Milner will talk about a lot, and I've started talking about too, with my patients is when we grow up with families who are actively dieting, who are actively restricting, we may end up as the lone fat people in our family system, despite the fact that if there was not good control and restriction going on, probably everybody in your family would be around your size, right. And so we grow up thinking that like, we're the oddball that we're the ones with, with the bodies that are wrong, when in truth, everyone around us has been engaging in this sort of careful, restrictive dieting for so long, that they're not in the bodies that they really were meant to be in. And they're going to continue to fight that their whole lives. And in some ways, when we engage with dieting, especially if we have children, we rob our children, the chance to see us as fat role models, and that I think, is really important in terms of how we start transmuting, this intergenerational trauma that we're talking about, because really the goal, I think you and I would agree is to heal this right not to continue to perpetuate it, but to, to heal it and to heal the community in a lot of ways. And I think that the way that we do that is like I was saying earlier, coming back home to ourselves and honoring our history, like you were saying, and and that means honoring our bodies, and whatever they're gonna do.
Stephanie Mara 26:47
Yeah, and something that you're pointing to is that one of the roots that has cultivated the kind of relationship with our food in our body that we have is trauma. Whether it's ours, or it's been passed down to us, or like you were pointing to sometimes you are the person who came into that family to say, I'm going to heal this. So yeah, you feel like you are the oddball out where actually you are in an environment where you see like, I can't continue this pattern.
Asher Seruya 27:21
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, being a cycle breaker is a lot, it is a lot of responsibility. And you do you feel like the villain, I mean, and that is often you know, if you study family dynamics and disrupting abuse dynamics, people will talk about this, that, you know, those who disrupt abusive dynamics are often painted as the villain, the bad guy. And in many ways you are to the family system, right? Because you're forcing the family system to adjust. And it doesn't want to, it's been working this way for a while, and it likes it. You know, as much as you can see that it doesn't work for everybody. There's a reason that it's been there for so long. And so you're a threat to that, you know, it's similar to like getting upset with your therapist or your dietitian for challenging your eating disorder. Right. Like, that's my job. That's what I'm here for. But you're not going to be happy about it. And that's okay.
Stephanie Mara 28:08
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So something that you were just saying about the family dynamics. Doesn't want to change. And I think that for so many individuals, they take that on as that there's something wrong with them.
Asher Seruya 28:26
Yes, right, we internalize it.
Stephanie Mara 28:28
When really, we have to kind of take a step back and see that you are actually showing up in a way that feels really authentic to you, and that you aren't going to allow the same cycle to happen within your family within your life. And there's, I think, a lot of grief. To process in that. And you see how many layers of all, if we just continue to focus on our food patterns, our body patterns, our body image worries, we never actually get to these deeper things of how painful maybe it was to grow up in a family that didn't know how to let you be you.
Asher Seruya 29:11
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think so many mental illnesses broadly, can be boiled down to that in so many ways, you know, feeling unseen and unheard, you know, and so I feel that it's so much of my work is to be is to see people, you know, in so many ways that is that is what I do is I see people and whatever comes up that comes of that, but, you know, it's there is so much value in just meeting someone where they're at, and not trying to change them and not trying to, you know, disrupt everything that they hold dear. Even if you disagree with it, you know, and also, it's okay to, you know, disrupt when things need disrupting.
Stephanie Mara 29:52
Yeah, yeah. So one thing I'm curious about, and I think that many individuals would potentially like to hear your process of, you know, you say, in many places on your Instagram, on your website, that you are a, you know, one of the first words you use is fat. And I think a lot of individuals that I talked to, are really unclear how to claim that, like, reclaim that word for themselves without all of the stigma and all of the things that we have learned about that word attached to it. And I'm really curious to hear about your process of kind of claiming that word for yourself that it's just a word.
Asher Seruya 30:36
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I want to preface this with everybody gets to identify and describe themselves however they feel most comfortable, right? I know, people who just don't like the word fat for some of the reasons I used to not like the word fat, you know, namely, that it was an insult that was hurled at me growing up, you know, why would you want to claim an insult? It's fair, you know, some of us have very visceral reactions to that word, understandably. And similar to the word queer, which I also identify as, they are words that have been taken from the communities that they are birthed from, if that makes sense. But these are words that that belonged to the community that then were taken and twisted, right and used as a slur as an insult all of these things, right. And so I do believe there is a lot of power in reclaiming something that was yours to begin with, that somebody else took and tried to use against you. Right? It's like, for example, growing up, say, you were made fun of for being sensitive, certainly something I was made for. And now as I'm older, I'm very proudly sensitive. It's an asset, it's something that makes me who I am. And yeah, sometimes there are consequences to it as with all things, but you know, it's me, and, and I'm sensitive, and I'm okay with that. You know, and I think that fatness can be similar, obviously, there's a structural piece to that, right, being sensitive isn't necessarily a structural issue, although you could argue. But that is one of those words, you know, I only started using it probably in the last five years, but it definitely is one of those words, that's just like, that's just I am I'm fat, that's my body. And, you know, it's also I think, a response to those common conversations of like, Oh, I'm so fat, and someone else counters with no, but you're so pretty. As if those two things are mutually exclusive. And I think it's things like that it's really about, I think, how the word is used in the general public, that pushes me to use it more, because it is just a descriptor. It's like saying you're tall. It's like saying, you have brown hair, like, you're, you're fat. That's just what it is. You're thin, you're round, you're like, you know, like, it's just, you're just describing things. And obviously, there are people in this world who don't use that word neutrally. And I don't blame anyone for kind of baulking when someone uses it in a fucked up way. It shouldn't be used that way. And I don't know that not using the word at all, which is kind of the the move that we went towards meant we being like the community in response to it being a negative. I don't think that's the move. The move is to take it for our own, reclaim it and name it for what it is, which is just a physical descriptor.
Stephanie Mara 33:27
Yeah. Yeah. I think when we use the word fat, we have to get really curious about the meaning underneath it. Because I think most of the time when we use it in regular day language, like when someone says I feel fat, fat is not a feeling.
Asher Seruya 33:43
Or like the Taylor Swift thing that just happened. Literally just happened.
Stephanie Mara 33:46
Right. Exactly. Yes. I know.
Asher Seruya 33:50
That is an example of how not to use the word.
Stephanie Mara 33:53
Yeah, exactly. And luckily, she heard and listened and she changed it. Thank goodness.
Asher Seruya 33:59
Wish there had been like an announcement and acknowledgement, but okay, it's fine.
Stephanie Mara 34:04
I agree. Agree. But yeah, it seemed like Oh, okay. I want to use this word in a negative way. And let me get really curious about that. And how am I actually feeling. Let me get descriptive.
Asher Seruya 34:17
Right? What am I really trying to say? Exactly. Because yes, you're right. It becomes this stand in for like, all the bad things, you know, and think about if you if you did that for any other descriptive word, how fucked up it would sound you know, but for fat, it's okay. Like no it's not.
Stephanie Mara 34:37
Yeah, yeah. So all of these things we have to kind of start to question and get really curious about and I think even when you label I'm having a bad body image day, for example, like doesn't have to be bad. You know, you are having potentially a difficult day in a body. And what is it about that experience in your body that is actually informing you of how you're processing your human experience.
Asher Seruya 35:05
Absolutely. I definitely am a proponent of moving away from like the good bad labeling, because it holds such morality to it. And I don't know, people listening might think we're being semantical. Is that a word? You know, I have a writing background, I can't help it. But also, words matter, they do matter when when we say, Oh, I'm bad. That means something. You know, it's not like we live in a world in which the morality of behavior doesn't have sort of a social script attached to it, it does. And so we have to really be conscious of the way that we're describing things. And I agree, be very curious about what's actually going on underneath. Because so often, these kinds of phrases that we throw out there to describe what's happening, are just things that we've heard other people say, and it's our best attempt to describe a situation. But it's probably not accurately reflecting the totality of it unless you've been to therapy and like, learned how to really talk about these things. But we're not born knowing how to, you know, assess what's going on internally, it's a very complicated experience. And we have to learn how to communicate with ourselves and with others about it.
Stephanie Mara 36:16
Yeah, it's kind of like the saying, if our body hears the words that we are saying to it, that if the goal here is to feel a little bit more connected, and safe in your system, that includes the way that you talk to yourself, the way that you talk to others, and the way you talk about other people. Because if you are even saying what they're doing is bad. You're also saying, Oh, that I have to make sure I don't do that. So that puts potentially more pressure and you in a box where if you wanted to do that thing, whatever it is eat that thing, be that thing, then that's suddenly bad if you even feel the impulse to want to explore that.
Asher Seruya 37:04
Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's, it's a, and it snowballs. And it's also it's something that we often are not even conscious of, I can't even tell you how many, you know, people and how many sessions, you know, I spend just being like, isn't that a bit judgmental, and then like, take a step back, and they're like, is it? It doesn't even register sometimes. Because we're, we're so conditioned to be so judgmental towards ourselves. It's very much like a societal norm, to be very critical. And we have this belief, I think, as a culture, especially in the United States, that to be critical is to be moral, you know, those two things are very much intertwined. And I see this come up a lot with like morality OCD, which obviously, when we're dealing with eating disorders, it's like a 90% comorbidity with OCD. So we often see OCD as well. And so I think that gets caught up in all of this stuff as well. There's just like, larger moral implication of like, how am I living my life? And am I doing it in a way that makes me feel like a good person? And if not, what the fuck am I doing? Like, because it's so easy to look at your behavior and be like, well, that was kind of mean, or that was kind of rude. Because like, yeah, you're a human being, and you're not going to be nice all the time.
Asher Seruya 37:06
Yeah, it's giving yourself a little bit of space and compassion to be a human being. That isn't going to show up 100% perfect. And you're not meant to.
Asher Seruya 38:27
You're not meant to. Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that that is something that like, more broader culturally, we have just completely gotten away from, you know, I mean, obviously, a lot of it is rooted in just like puritanical approaches to the world, which goes way back to colonialism. But you know, what, there's a reason that we're here is what I'm saying.
Stephanie Mara 38:49
Yeah, yeah. So we've explored like, so many things today.
Asher Seruya 38:52
Yeah, we just bounced all around.
Stephanie Mara 38:54
I'm curious, I often like to give those who listen to this podcast, like, if they could take a baby step on this journey in healing their relationship with their food and their body, and maybe even owning their body more and more, what's kind of something that maybe you explore with your clients or those you work with, or a baby step that you even found really powerful and effective in your own life that moved you towards more acceptance and peace in relationship with your food and your body?
Asher Seruya 39:23
I love that. I think the thing that popped up in my brain is something I've been using a lot with patients recently, which is can you insert a maybe, right? Not, you know, tell your brain it's stupid and wrong and go fuck itself and blah blah blah. No. Just maybe that's not true. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Maybe I might not be seeing that quite so objectively, maybe. Maybe I am. Maybe I'm not. I think that adding the maybe creates more space because I think in a lot of ways that's the goal is to just make more space between us and the thought so that we're don't feel fused to it so that it doesn't feel like it's an intrinsic part of who we are. And in that space, we can allow ourselves to find whatever is authentic, right? Because that's different for everybody. But I think that the maybe can be universal in the sense that it can make the space to start thinking about what that healing and different relationship might look like for you.
Stephanie Mara 40:21
I love that, you know, something that I'd like to remind a lot of those that I also work with is that it's never too late to check in. So that that may be might actually come after you do your food or body behavior. Where it's like, Okay, I binged on food, and instead of thinking of myself as a bad person, like, maybe I'm not a bad person.
Asher Seruya 40:47
Exactly. That is a perfect example of how to utilize that. Yeah. And you know, maybe I'm trying to meet a need, maybe I was triggered, maybe, right. And, and it leaves this opening of like, maybe I wasn't right, because it leaves the no open. But it also leaves the yes open. And I think that that, especially when we're first engaging with with healing of any kind, there's so much going on that we're dealing with, it's almost like being in a fog of some kind, that having just like an alternative option to look to, can feel very freeing, I think.
Stephanie Mara 41:19
Yeah, thanks so much for sharing that. You know, I'd love for you to share how individuals can keep in touch with you, where can they find you, and any offerings that you have currently are coming up?
Asher Seruya 41:32
Yeah, absolutely. So best place to find me really is on Instagram, I'm at @badashtherapy . I also have a Tik Tok, I don't post there very much, but I'm on there. And my website is ashermseruya.com. And I actually have my my shop reopened and I have new prints and stickers and such available. So if you're into mental health, Jewish identity, weight stigma, also some cannabis and art, you should check out the website.
Stephanie Mara 41:59
Your stickers are so cool. And I know you had been trying to get your shop reopened for a while. So super excited that they're there. The stickers are super cool. And just kind of like, you know, reminding individuals just how complex our relationship with our food and body is. So I really appreciate that that is an offering you have as well.
Asher Seruya 42:21
Thanks. Yeah.
Stephanie Mara 42:22
Well loved to talking with you today. Thank you so much for sharing everything you did and all of your wisdom and we'll definitely love to have you back again in the future.
Asher Seruya 42:32
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, you can come on Kvetching on the Couch. That's that's my podcast.
Stephanie Mara 42:36
Yeah! Let's do it.
Asher Seruya 42:40
Well, thank you so much.
Stephanie Mara 42:41
Yeah, well to all who are listening. If you have any questions as always reach out anytime I will leave our contact information in the show notes. I hope you all have a beautiful rest of your day and talk to you all soon. Bye!
Keep in touch with Asher here:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/badashtherapy/
Website: https://ashermseruya.com/
Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@badashtherapy
Contact: Asher@ashermseruya.com
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