Unraveling Body and its Image From Your Sense of Self and Identity

Welcome to the Satiated Podcast where we explore physical and emotional hunger, satiation and healing your relationship with your food and body. I'm your host Stephanie Mara Fox your Somatic Nutritional Counselor. I'm looking forward to chatting today with Erica Mather. Erica is a lifelong teacher who has struggled with emotional overeating, compulsive over exercising, and body dysmorphic disorder. As an embodiment educator, she guides people to feel better in and about their bodies. Her adore your body transformational programs help overcome body image challenges. And the Yoga Clinic of New York City helps students, teachers and health professionals to learn about empowered self care for the body. Erica is a body image expert, and was named one of the next generations important yoga teachers by Yoga Journal. She writes for Mind Body Green on the topic of body image challenges is a regular columnist for River Town Magazine and as a popular repeat interview on the Soul Feed Podcast, Hay House radios, Angel Club, and many more. Welcome, Erica.

Erica Mather 01:13

Thank you, Stephanie. Thanks for having me.

Stephanie Mara 01:16

I am so excited to connect with you today. And I always love starting out just hearing about people's histories and how they got into this work because all of our journeys just ebb and flow to interesting places that land us where we are today.

Erica Mather 01:31

Well, as my bio suggested, I've had a long history of this. And I think a lot of us in healing modalities have a personal relationship with this and then our quest then is to translate our wisdom into relief and guidance and wisdom and help and support for other people. And so that basically, is that's it in a nutshell. I grew up in the Midwest, I have adult onset migraine headaches, I have all those weird, not weird, very common troubles that I've felt intersected with, with body image, I didn't realize that they intersected with body image, but I'm sure you know, in your line of work, it's like almost impossible to pull apart the food from the how you feel about yourself thing and how you see yourself in the world thing. So I once upon a time, actually, was a holistic health counselor, and I spent time talking to people about what they eat. And I so often felt like I was having the wrong conversation. Because I feel like a lot of times people actually don't necessarily have an eating problem. They have a like a soul problem. And it's some pain in the soul that leads them to try to find solutions in the world that are more material. And so my book really is an expression I think of me trying to solve that problem. I felt like, I could talk to you about whether to eat like legumes are not eat legumes and are they causing inflammation or not causing inflammation. I could talk to you about this. But I don't think this is actually the issue. And so the book is really like I said, an it's an expression of my belief that we have a soul problem. And it's materializing in our dislike and distrust of our bodies. And then we try to control that with how we eat. But it's actually, in my experience, a lot of times not actually the problem.

Stephanie Mara 03:31

I completely agree that it's really hard to tease out. If you have a broken relationship with food that often lends itself to probably having some troubles in your relationship with your body. I think that is spot on. And we live in such a culture that puts so much pressure on our body and its image. And that affects our relationship with food.

Erica Mather 03:56

Yes, it is not easy to solve a food problem, actually, it's very difficult to solve a food problem is what I've found. And, and yes, and it's always kind of intertwined with how does your body look, whether you feel satisfied with how your body looks, and then backing up further into the systems and structures that we live in called society, how society teaches you that you are valuable or not valuable. And what is your reason for existing anyway. If that value is drawn into question, which is oh my gosh, it's so complicated. So anyway, I move in the yoga world and in this coaching world, and as mentioned in the bio, I really do two things and one is that I try to help people actually deal with the real material challenges of having a body and I try to help people on the other side with this body image, what am I here for kind of thing and those two things intersect. Like today I've already worked with two clients and one of them is more sort of, of the high level, kind of like she's thinking about what it means to die, which is like a very strange place to be not because it's imminent, but because she's in her 70s. And people around her are dying. And so this, like, how does your body relate to the other part of life, which is there's birth and there's death and then life is what happens in between. So like, how does it relate. And then my other client is someone who came to me for very crippling back pain at a very young age. And so but all of this like, really like why does your back hurt? And how do you think about yourself, if you, if other people at a very young age can go and do things, but you can't do things because you get hurt? And then how does that like foment into a sense of self, and how you think about yourself, and then how you present in the world, it's also intertwined identity issues with what your body looks like, feels like can do all these things.

Stephanie Mara 06:05

Yeah, I think that's interesting that you're pointing out this cross section between how do we learn how to be in a body, and then also this acceptance in navigating your body's image. And I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on that of it kind of can be parallel journeys, of like, oh, I have this body. And I have sensations that show up in this body. And also, I have reactions to this body and the way that it looks.

Erica Mather 06:35

I think that that is something we don't talk about enough. And so I'm glad that you tease that out of what I just said, because it is a very, very important and under discussed intersection of how we feel about ourselves, how we move in the world, and how we form an identity based on our inside experience. And then the reactions we get from the outside world and how those two like coalesce, what you just said is very true. They grow in parallel lines, but they weave back and forth, right, so they're not actually parallel, they like they cross and then they uncross maybe more like a double helix, I think the harder thing actually to talk about is how you feel about your body from the inside out. I think in a lot of ways, it's easier to identify how people react to you, because they will let you know, they will let you know in subtle or not subtle ways. I was on a podcast a couple of days ago, and that we were talking the the interviewer brought up someone who lost a lot of weight, a TV personality, lost a lot of weight. And they said that they did this because they wanted to attract a better man. And I thought, Oh, that's so interesting, because that is a very concrete way for you to understand how people perceive your body as what kind of a what kind of person is attracted to you what kind of a person can you get to stick around. But then it's, I think harder to talk about the interior experience of your sense of self and how people react to you and how that makes you feel. And whether it aligns with your sense of identity. When I think about body dysmorphia, the experience that I always had was looking at the thing that is me in the mirror and being like, that's me, right? And that internal experience is super, it's so tender, it's so vulnerable, it's so painful, it's very hard to talk about, I have a lot of like, not exactly like I understand it. But when people don't feel like they're the right sex or the right gender, however you want to use those terms. Like I get that I get that from a very deep place not because I don't feel like a woman. Right? It's taken a lot for me to like, actually be like, Well, what kind of a woman am I? And my body looks like this. But my personality is like that. And do they align? And how do people react to me, right? So I get that I get on a on a deep level not have the same thing like I'm not the right sex or not the right gender, but to feel that alienated from your own body is a very, very, very disturbing experience, and one that then makes it harder to navigate the world. Because it undercuts your confidence. And then anytime anybody reacts to you in a particular way, it's like you're shaking all over again. So anyway, yes, there are parallel lines, how people react to and one of the things I say as I think about the process of growing up in the process of gaining body image confidence is having a clear understanding of how people perceive you from the outside and what you look like and what those reactions mean or don't mean and how it can, how you stay solid in your sense of self no matter what a person or how a person reacts to you. I have a friend who is a trans man and I feel like his, his journey of this has been the thing that I just described was like, no matter how a person reacts to him, he knows who he is. And I think that's the inner outer thing that we're always like toggling back and forth between, someone reacts to me, because I'm tall and brunette and have big boobs, and they have a reaction to me, which might have nothing to do with me, it has to do with them. And then I have to stay solid in my reaction to them, maybe I threaten them, maybe they're attracted to me, maybe I remind them of someone they like, or they don't like, but it's all about them. And that, that all can go around on around me and I can take it in and be like, Oh, okay, I see what's happening. But it doesn't actually have anything to do with me. I'm me, Is this is all making sense? You're, you're nodding your head along with me. I've said so much I've talked for so long.

Stephanie Mara 10:54

100%. And I think you're really pointing to something quite profound here is that so often, that impulse to want to change your body doesn't necessarily have to do with your body itself. It's what you were taught about your body, and why you have been taught or think that it should change, because you'll attract a different kind of person, because you'll be more lovable and acceptable, because the fashion industry is fat phobic, and you'll finally fit into clothes that you've been wanting to fit into. You know, there's just so many different layers. And I'm curious for yourself, what started to mend that relationship for you, or those that you've worked with to say like, Okay, this is just who I am, because that's actually quite a powerful stance that you got to have like, okay, I can have this all going around me, and still feel solid within myself of saying, this is me, this is my body, this is what I have. And they can be over there thinking whatever they want to think. And I'm wondering, like, what are the steps that you feel like supported you in getting there?

Erica Mather 12:04

That is a great question. I think that having a sense of my value independent from my body, was key. We are existing in a paradox. We're our bodies, but we're not our bodies. We're our bodies, but we're not our bodies. You can't deny that our bodies are integral to who and what we are. But that's not it. Also, that but also you can't, you can't stay there. We're also not our bodies, you are also the content of your character, your skills, your talents, how you make other people feel what you contribute to the world, that is also who you are. And so I think that having a strong sense of like, I had a skill and a talent helps me with that. And I know that not everybody comes into the world with that feeling like I've got, I've got something, you know. A little bit of background, is I used to be a professional musician. And so I started playing the piano when I was very young. And my family was a little bit like, astonished that, you know, I was writing music and playing the piano when I was four and five, they're like, what's happening?! And they were so astonished that they sort of treated me like this was a gift from beyond this talent. And so I always had this sense of like, oh, I'm not the some of my body, even though you need a body to play the piano, right? If I if I had didn't have hands that wouldn't have been available to me. Now, if I didn't have that now I have to reach. This is really interesting. Like I have to reach and be like, what would it be. And the ways that I've coached my my clients to that is to resource the people around them, who they trust and love for real information about what they bring to a situation. Because the truth of the matter, and I've had to really instill this in some people, because we do some, some I live in New York City, some you know, so it can be a very shallow interaction. Some people do have friends, and the only reason they have the friends is because of the status of the friendship, but I have to coach my people, that's not the friendship you want to have. You know, that's not the relationship you want to have. That is a status building one. So you have to look for people who really, really, really value you, which might alter the way that you form relationships, too. And so, I will encourage people to go to the people they trust and they love and people aren't just like, you know, giving them lip service is like, what do you love about me? What do you find valuable about me? And what those people discover is that if they have the right friendships, it's never because you're pretty, or your smile is, you know you have perfect teeth or whatever, you know, and so they have to build a sense of identity weirdly, from the outside in, which is how we often build this appearance based sense of identity. But now I'm asking you to go back and build an identity that is based on folks being able to see you, for who and what you are not for how you present physically, and to generate that data. And then to really take that to heart and think about what it is that you bring to the world. That is a value to the world. And it doesn't necessarily have to be like a big talent, you know, it could be that you make people feel good about themselves, you know, that that actually is a real skill to make people feel good about themselves. That is a superpower. Actually, in a way, if you think about it.

Stephanie Mara 15:38

Yeah, I'm really hearing in that starting to deepen into what is on the inside of this body that makes you who you are, because your body does not define you. Yes, you need it to be here on this earth, we cannot be here physically without a body, and that you are still so much more than your body. And I'm hearing also, really, I want to just add on to that, I think it's such a great suggestion, and getting really clear about who you poll for that. Because I think there are some individuals that maybe wouldn't be the reflection you would want to receive. And it's got to be the people in your life that feel safe, that have already supported you in feeling seen in your life. And I think that yes, sometimes when we are struggling with seeing ourselves, or knowing our own value, because it was never maybe reflected back to us at a young age, kind of talking to the people who really value you and see you today as you are so that you can start to experience that even your internal dialogue of your own body is only one perspective, and that you don't have to take that one perspective internally, just because it's yours as the truth, that there are other people with other perspectives that you could start to integrate into you that would start to broaden your experience of your body and its image.

Erica Mather 17:07

Yep, yep. And then eventually, you'll have a sense of who you are, what you are on your own, and hopefully be able to hold strong in that. But even even the person with the strongest sense of self and the strongest, like, center, on occasion, needs someone else to be like, here's what I love about you. Here's what's great about you, you know, yes, but to your point, you would have to it's a little bit of a chicken and an egg thing, right? If you don't have the relationships already in place, where you could pull and know that you are going to get reliable information, then you have to think about how you're generating those relationships in the first place and go looking for different relationships from the ground up, which can be tricky, because if you're used to feeling good about yourself, because someone validated that you're pretty, if you're used to looking for that sort of validation to go look for a different sort of validation is very self motivated in a particular way, that indicates a very high level of self reflection. So it's it is a complicated process. Parents are sometimes great polls, and sometimes they're not great polls, you know, which I think maybe you were thinking about that you could immediately be like, well I'll ask my mom, like maybe you shouldn't ask your mom, you know. The thing is that there is the funny thing about our parents is our parents grew up with, even in some ways, more stringent, some less stringent, you know, body image challenges. So you may have, you may have been raised by a person who told you that you were only valuable if you were thin and pretty. So that person is not the person you're gonna go and ask right? It was something that I started to do, actually, as I started to make sure that I was generating relationships that felt validating to my heart, in like a real deep way that I knew that if my appearance changed dramatically, which could happen to anyone at any moment, you could be disfigured in a car crash, sorry to go really dark. But you know, it could happen to anybody at any moment. That while those people might be understandably taken aback at a change in appearance, that they would still know that you were you and that they would still want to have a friendship with you, not a physical manifestation of you that fits their status requirements.

Stephanie Mara 19:32

Yeah, what I'm really hearing and what you're describing is also what is being reflected back to us and getting really curious about that of how it's affecting your experience of yourself. Because if you are surrounded by individuals that only can see this outer container, or in any particular way, where they're praising it or constantly criticizing it, that if that is also what you are taking in all the time, and further continuing to make your body feel unsafe, and that those relationships also you might have felt drawn to to begin with, because you were already taught at some point in your life that you couldn't feel safe in this body. So it feels like it perpetuates. So to challenge this, like, okay, who's in my environment? What am I being reflected back? You know, this does sound kind of like life transformational of, oh, okay, I might start and be like, rockin a lot of things in my life, just because you might start saying, oh, wow, I need to put myself in different communities around different people, because I'm not getting reflected back how I want to be in relationship with this body.

Erica Mather 20:49

Yep. You just summarized that so well, yeah. It can be hard. It can be really hard. It can rock everything, for sure. That will rock family structures. It'll make you make different choices in intimate partners. And this is a really tricky place, right? Because I feel like, you know, people are attracted to what they're attracted to. And they shouldn't be made to feel right or wrong for what they're attracted to. It just it is what it is, you know, but then sometimes folks feel fetishized, right? If the attraction somehow feels a little bit like edgy in that way, I have a friend who is what you would call Rubenesque. And it's something she really struggles with is like, is this man attracted to me because he has a fat fetish. My recommendation, if you're thinking about this is just to try one new way. Try one new relationship, just go looking for a new friend. Just go looking for one new friend who has a different way of moving in the world and see what it feels like. A lot of times the recommendation about this is to like start with like representation like in your social media field, like look for different sorts of voices, different representations, you know, so if there's a lot of dieting and fitness goals in your social media field, like maybe mute those or unfollow those, or whatever you feel comfortable with and go look for communities that are talking about different ways of approaching the body. At this time of year, we're in January right now at this conversation point, you know, so even just starting to shift your paradigm, just dip your toe into shifting your paradigm. That's all. You don't have to move fast. Actually, you shouldn't move fast, you should move slow. And do a little paradigm shift and then see if it works for you. That's really important. It's got to be honest, you have to keep checking at every step for like, am I being honest with myself?

Stephanie Mara 22:57

Yeah, yeah. I appreciate that initial suggestion. I'm a big fan of chunking things down into baby steps. And what is just like one tiny, manageable, sustainable, doable step that we can take on our journeys. And that's, well, that is maybe a big step of like, okay, where do I find a friend? You know, it is kind of a small thing to kind of drop in of ooh, where could I find people that would interact with me in this body in different ways than what I'm receiving now?

Erica Mather 23:32

It seems like a small thing, but it's a huge thing. Yeah, its a huge thing.

Stephanie Mara 23:37

Now, you've recently came out with a book. And I'd love for you to talk about the wisdom that you share in this book. And you know, just kind of even just a snippet of kind of the guidance that you provide in there.

Erica Mather 23:51

Yeah. So the book is called your body, your best friend: and the confidence crushing pursuit of unrealistic beauty standards and embrace your true power. And the book is a how to book. It's basically a seven step how to book and it starts with changing your mind. And it's really so the arc of the book is changing your mind then changing how you actually relate to your body. Because what I found is that most people have received no education in how to relate to their body in a way that is kind and supportive and loving. We've been taught things like the body is a machine, which is couldn't be farther from the truth following that logic is that you can just run it until it needs an oil change. No, no, that's not the way it works. It needs to rest. So the wisdom of the book is some paradigm shifts. Some actually how do you relate to your body differently? And then the end of the book is takes it very high level spiritual, which is like if this is a soul wound, right? That our funky relationship with food and our weird relationship with our body, really what's running under the course is like, an existential crisis. What am I here for? Am I valuable? Do I have a place in the world that then the last part of the book starts to lay some track for how you could resolve those questions, using your body as an ally, not as a sidecar. But as the car not to go back to machine analogy, but is THE car and THE thing that is going to help you answer these questions that that created the problem with the body in the first place. So it's pretty circular, in a way that I hope is pleasing. The wisdom of the book, the first four chapters, the paradigms that I'm trying to take apart is one is like, we all are seeking a relief from suffering, and that the opposition to suffering we call happiness in our society. And so I'd really try to talk about our misconception about happiness and our incorrect relationship with happiness try to replace that. The second chapter is about kind of this outward relationship with identity formation and the outwardness people looking at other people are feeling people looking at them. And the experience is usually competition. Comparison, judgment, and envy is what arises in that outward looking or receiving energy at you. Those are the emotional experiences usually. And so I talk about those emotional experiences and what they represent and how to work around them. Then there is a chapter on perfectionism. Because I think that we have been taught that there is only one way to be in it is to be perfect, and any failing, just completely eradicates all of your efforts. So there's a big chapter on perfectionism. And then there is another chapter on the difference between black and white thinking, and all of the space in between those two endpoints, and I call it Tame The Spin Doctor. And so the spin doctor is you who says, this is good, that is bad. And that's just not the way life works. Life is only movement between those polarities, that's it, there is no fixed point of one thing or the other. It's just a movement between polarities. And so it's trying to take apart binary thinking. This or that, hot or cold, good or bad, fat or thin, you know, and really be like, No, it's everything. Life is everything in between those polarities. And those are the first like four chapters of the book is trying to create like a paradigm shift. Because I've discovered that lasting transformation occurs, when you change the way that you think about things, it doesn't change through you just altering the way you eat, or changing, while those things will have impact on you. And it may change you in different ways. It is really the paradigm, it is really your perspective, that creates lasting change. And so that's why I started there. And then we go talk about your body with this new sort of paradigm, and then we talk about how your body could be an ally and healing this soul wound of what the hell am I here for, and all of the friction that causes for people, because knowing your value, or knowing your worth, helps you feel more settled about why you're actually alive anyway.

Stephanie Mara 28:27

Yeah, I first appreciate that you're kind of combining that we can't change how we experience our individual body, if we don't also address that we need to collectively change how we view bodies in general. You know, I kind of like to normalize a lot with those that I work with that until the collective changes, and that we're not so focused on our body and its image and what different body images mean, because we don't actually know that's a creation of our culture, that we're going to continue to have a journey with our body and its image because this is just in our environment. And so I really appreciate that that is a part of your book, because it is really important that we address that this isn't just an individual issue. This is also a global issue as well.

Erica Mather 29:28

Yeah. And to that point, each chapter in the book kind of identifies like, hey, this is this is a structural paradigm that you're experiencing, right? A collective experience about our misconceptions about happiness and how it maps onto our body. That's a collective thing we're experiencing. But also, society is comprised of individuals. So we have to, like we have to work on this from both sides and the collective delusion that we're living in, is because as humans also are a species that has I call it, we have foibles, you know, there's just foibles of the species we're prone to forgetfulness, or prone to binary thinking, we're prone to actually being kind of negative as a species, right? Because we survival required that you identify threats, right. So there are foibles of the species that then we as individuals have to push back against. And when we push back against them individually, then it creates a different structure of society that we could eventually live in. When there's a critical mass of people feeling and thinking the same way.

Stephanie Mara 30:45

Yeah, it starts to change the culture. It starts on such an individual level. Yes, that it's like, okay, I'm seeing this is an issue in my environment. Alright, what can I do inside of myself to shift how I relate with my body and my food, so that then I can show up for others that way that might start shifting their experience of their body and their food? Because you could also be the friend that someone else is looking for that reflects something different back to them.

Erica Mather 31:18

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And this, this is also so important to our body, our bodies, not just because of what we eat. But what I've learned is that we learn through somatic experience, right? So when something really sticks, it sticks because you've had a felt experience of it. Right? And so that you could, like you said, you could be the friend that one day is helping someone else feel differently about themselves. It is what my teacher Ana Forest calls kinesthetic transmission. It's like, the only way that you have experienced something or learn about something is because someone made you feel a certain way. Human beings are very symbiotic, very symbiotic. But I want to say to your listeners, if it sounds like a lot of responsibility, sure, yeah. Just like just like be like, ooh feels like a lot of responsibility. Don't worry about it, don't worry about it, what you need to do is just make sure that you are healthy, that's all, you just got to start with making yourself healthy. The biggest service that you can do for the world and the planet is to make sure you are healthy. Because your health then radiates, it helps other people be healthy.

Stephanie Mara 32:47

Yeah, I think that is a really great catch. I am often kind of saying those things as well that we could get really excited about something of like, oh, this is where this could all go to. And that healing has to be about baby stops. And it has to feel safe in your own system. And so it's don't worry, especially if you come from a background of perfectionism and people pleasing, then that might be like, oh, I can further support someone else? This doesn't have to be about me? So we can kind of catch that. And also like it does get to start within you of just how can I feel safe and at home in this body exactly as it is. And that can sometimes for some individuals be a lifelong journey. And that's okay, there's no timeline on this.

Erica Mather 33:38

Yep, there is no timeline. That can be very hard, because we want to get there now we want to be happy now. We want to have what we want now. And yes, it can be tricky. And the thing of people pleasing can be circular too, because a lot because I think women have been taught to be pleasing and have been taught to be of service and actually being of service is a real value. Right? So if you're one of those people, like you were I imagined Stephanie, like we got here in a way because because we had so deeply ingrained in us that being of service to others was our skill was our talent was what we brought to the world, that then if you're one of those people that you must restore. And so for those people, it's like in order to keep doing this thing that is real and true, I also must find myself in this and restore and what my teacher Ana Forest says and, I think that it's a really useful thing, is when you're giving, an energy passes through you, but that energy passing through you shouldn't deplete you. That energy passing through you should feed you first. So the advantage of of like, for instance, loving is loving another person is the person who feels love is the first person to benefit, right. And so it should be the same thing. If you're if you are a person of service, that when you are being of service, make sure to find yourself in that equation and feed yourself, be nourished by the energy that is running through you. So if you find yourself depleted, it may be that you're doing too much, you need to scale back, it may be that you are letting the energy just run through you without taking a sip, you got to take a sip. And make sure that if you're feeling depleted, that you allow yourself to be nourished by the energy that is running through you.

Stephanie Mara 35:36

Such a great reminder in how this kind of connects back even with your body and your body's image is that I often find that our criticism or judgment about our body, and its appearance often increases when we are feeling depleted, that when you are feeling more like you're living from that relaxation response, that you might feel just generally more grounded and stable inside of your body, that you're maybe not hearing as much of that body criticism happening. So even body like that body criticism gets to be information about the state of your body. And what I'm really hearing is that when you are having experiences that fill you back up, that will support you in moving into that relaxation response, before you go to the oh, how can I give back, I'm having such a positive experience, I need to give this back to who I'm with or to someone else. First, just allowing it to land within yourself, and you get to feel good first. And I think that kind of goes into how much we're taught not to be like selfish. But you know, I always like to think of the saying that they say on an airplane, you know, you have to put your air mask on first. And that if you are feeling good and regulated and safe in your body, that you will kind of naturally start giving back, it won't be so much work.

Erica Mather 37:03

Yes, 100%. And I feel like also, it goes very, very deep into a societal belief that we're holding that I want to call out, which is that we are expendable. And the reason that you feel like you can just give it all away, and that you don't need to take care of yourself first is because society says we don't need you. It's actually like a human human rights thing. It's like, actually, you do need me. And you need all of us to be healthy. And so it's actually, I think, quite radical and individualist in the best way to be like, actually, no, I'm not expendable. Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like capitalism teaches us we're expendable, you should work 80 hour work weeks, you should suffer at your desk. You should, you should. And the message is it doesn't matter. Because your health doesn't matter. Because we'll just put some other person in that chair. And so for you to claim your, a word that's been going around a lot recently, your sovereignty like to claim your sovereignty and be like, actually, no, I am valuable. I am not expendable. Fine, put someone else in the chair, but I'm gonna go take care of myself. That's that attitude starts to shift the way humans interact.

Stephanie Mara 38:27

Yeah, it's kind of putting yourself behind the driver's seat. And oftentimes, we're really putting ourselves in the passenger seat and letting a lot of others dictate how we show up why we show up where we show up when we show up. And also just want to add that this is what we're taught. Like, if you're like, oh, that's exactly what I'm doing. Like no shame, no judgment. Like you were taught this from culture. You were taught this from media, you were taught this from your family, like this is also potentially generational wounds and traumas that got passed down to you of this is how I'm supposed to be in the world. And so we have to first start from this place of just self compassion, of just cultivating awareness of, oh, I'm this way for a reason. You're not wrong. It's not bad. This is just what I, I created for myself to feel like I could continue to be alive in this body in this world. And once that awareness starts cultivating though, I kind of always feel like something I say probably on other podcasts episodes, as well as like, it feels like a snowball. Because once that ball starts rolling down that hill, it's hard to stop it because once you're aware of something, you can't be unaware of it anymore. And things will start to pick up steam and momentum, that there's a different way to potentially show up for you, your body and others in your life.

Erica Mather 39:52

Yes. And I feel like I just want to say like this is revolutionary. Like I think that this is radical. I think it's revolutionary. I think that it pushes back against society in ways that are gracious. You know, and and humane. And one of the things I say in my book a lot is like, this is not your fault. None of this is your fault. And kind of to what you were saying, Stephanie, it's like, who taught me this? Was it my parents? Was it school? Was it religion? Was it media? Was it? Is it ancestral? Like, where did this come from? Who taught me this and who made me believe this was real and true. And pushing back against all of that is revolutionary, I think. And so I think when we talk about food issues, and body issues, that, you know, there's some people who don't want to dive this deep with us, they just want to like, they just want to feel better, look better, get a better job. But I'm really grateful that you and I can hobnob on this level. Because it is like the work that you're doing, the work that I'm doing is to restructure humanity at a cellular level. And that is incredible. That's incredible. That would be miraculous. It is a miracle that we're working on here. And to envision a society where human beings aren't expendable. They're not taught that they're expendable, that they don't believe that they're expendable, you know, you start to think about it. Like, what if there were billions of people who felt they weren't expendable, and it's a great idea. But you might see, it could also cause a lot of problems. It's a lot easier if people feel believe that they're expendable.

Stephanie Mara 41:40

Yeah. So you know, I know that you offered one little tiny baby step at first and to surround friends, you know, I usually like to kind of wrap up with, like, if someone's starting this journey of radicalizing their own relationship with their body, and their environment, you know, what is kind of a first step that you usually start with, maybe the book talks about, or that you start with your own clients, that you would recommend that someone could just take that first baby step forward, and having a different relationship with their experience of their body and its appearance.

Erica Mather 42:18

It's actually not really showcased in the book, but it's something that I've been thinking about is like, this is the number one place to start. And it's no matter what you do to be brutally honest with yourself about your motivation, is the motivation generated from love? Or is it generated from fear? And it may take you a very long time to really sort that through. But if you think about altering the way you eat, if you think about taking some new movement or exercise regime, it's like, if you really dig deep, what is the motivation? Is it love? Or is it fear? And the only person who can answer that, honestly, is you. Because someone might look in on you getting lip fillers, and think that's hate, but you've done the work around inside of yourself. And you've really decided that this works for you for reasons that are very personal. And you know, for a fact that you are getting your lip fillers, because of love. The only person who knows is you, people looking in from the outside will judge as they are inclined to. And you just have to know, this is love. And that's it. And I use lip fillers, you know, because that I think that we we in the body acceptance zone, kind of rule out things like that as acceptable. And I actually think that that's just creating another prison, we haven't gotten to the heart of the matter yet. And I think the heart of the matter is no one knows your motivation except for you. And you have to live with your motivation, you have to live with the results of it in your body. So go for love, not for hate, orient your compass towards love, and make your decisions from there.

Stephanie Mara 44:06

I love that. And I think the lip filler is such a fantastic example. Honestly, because you're spot on that we have even a distorted view of what body acceptance is, and that there is a right or wrong way to love your body. And that actually that is only going to be unique to you. And what brings you into a safe connected relationship with yourself. And only you are going to know that if lip fillers, as the example, does that for you and makes you feel safe in your body and is an act of self love, you're the only one who needs to know that and trust that.

Erica Mather 44:49

Yep. I'm so glad that that resonated with you. You know it came to mind because I had a woman who was doing a pedicure for me and she was had gorgeous hair and was wearing a sexy dress and just like clearly like into herself, and I felt like her lip filler was disfigured her a bit. Unfortunately. And, and I had to sit with my own reaction to that. And I was like, and it just had to be like, none of my fucking business. I just had to really be with that like none of your business, Erica, shine some love on this person, they're having their own journey, their own soul journey and it has nothing to do with you. Onward.

Stephanie Mara 45:33

Yeah, I think it's actually a really great example of just how important it is to take that pause to assess our own reaction. Because it's not really about, oh that person went on another diet and lost weight, it's your reaction to it that is interesting information to check out within yourself. And then like it just comes full circle of it starts within ourselves, you know, as we land inside of our own body and get to know our reactions and why we have them, then we get to be in relationship with our body in a new way, where we just get to own our reactions as our own and work with them.

Erica Mather 46:12

Yes, it's an inner game and an outer game and an inner game and an outer game and an inner game and an outer game. And this is what we'll be doing forever. Because that is the strange world we live in as human beings.

Stephanie Mara 46:28

Yeah, well, this was just such a powerful conversation. And I want to leave a minute here just for you to kind of talk about where individuals can find you keep in touch with you find your book, and you know, anything else that you're doing in the world.

Erica Mather 46:43

Oh, thank you so much for that invitation. Well, probably the best way to stay in close touch with me if you want that if you want me to bother you is get on my mailing list. And you can do that at my website, ericamather.com. And through my mailing list, I send out notifications about programming I'm running, I run about five adore your body transformational group programs per year. And I coach one on one. I also do zoom private yoga. If you have like a legit like problem with your body that you're trying to solve like an injury or an illness, or you're just noticing that time is accumulating on you in a way that's unfamiliar, I'm available for all of that find me get on my mailing list. If you want something that's a little less like close, you don't want me bothering you in your inbox, you can follow me on Instagram, I'm most active there. I'm less active on Facebook, but I'm also there, and I'm least active on Twitter. But I'm also there.

Stephanie Mara 47:48

Awesome. Well, thanks for naming all of that. And I'll put all of these links in the show notes. And I just appreciate your time and your perspective. And it's important, these conversations are really important to have just to also bring out how nuanced and complicated and layered this healing journey is with our bodies. So thank you for sharing your wisdom and time today.

Erica Mather 48:12

Oh, it's so my pleasure. And as you noted at the beginning, I've been doing this for a long time and my thinking on it and my ability to convey the perspective has changed. But it's also changed in lockstep with people like you whose consciousness is evolving in similar ways. So I feel like now I can have the conversation that I've been wanting to have for a very long time. So I want to appreciate you for being there to have the conversation with.

Stephanie Mara 48:40

Yeah, well, I'm thrilled that we got connected. And yeah, also a very just feeling a lot of gratitude over here that we were able to have this chat today and also share this out in the world and to all that are listening, if you have any questions or insights or aha moments, anything that comes up for you, I'll also put our contact information in the show notes as well. So please reach out anytime and I will connect with you all again really soon. Bye!

Keep in touch with Erica here:

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Website: https://ericamather.com/

Contact: https://ericamather.com/contact/