How To Step Into Self Leadership and Grieve Past Selves
Welcome to the Satiated Podcast, where we explore physical and emotional hunger, satiation and healing your relationship with your food and body. I'm your host. Stephanie Mara Fox, your Somatic Nutritional Counselor. Something I have not discussed here on a food healing journey is becoming a leader of yourself. That can mean a lot of different things and how I'll define that here is being connected to yourself so that you're making decisions in your life that feel in alignment with your present and future self. Often food decisions can be made from your past selves. This can include your inner child, inner teenager, inner perfectionist, inner dieter, or inner rebel. All of these parts were created in the past and they tell you what to eat or how to interact with food based on the beliefs they created and what they were being taught at that time of your life. Stepping into self leadership can be listening to all of these parts, supporting them in feeling heard, and then you and your future self make the final call. There can be a lot of explorations that often need to occur to be able to identify what feels in alignment with you. I chat about this today with Dr. Pavini Moray. Pavini is an author with over 30 years of experience as an educator, activist, somatic coach, and serial entrepreneur. They support humans and organizations to evolve their communication and enjoy thriving relationships. Their book "How to Hold Power: A Somatic Approach to Becoming a Leader People Love and Respect," was published in 2023 by North Atlantic Books, and their upcoming book "Tending the Bones: Reclaiming Pleasure after Transgenerational Sexual Trauma--A 13-month somatic journey of ancestral ritual and embodiment" will be published in January 2025. Pavini's pronouns are They/Them. They are a queer, trans, nonbinary human walking the glitter path of dancing bones, ridiculous delight, and old magick. We chat about what is needed to explore and cultivate when stepping into a position of self leadership, the presence of grief on this journey and any healing path, somatic practices to start to connect with yourself, breaking free from your lineage, and so much more. I walked away from this conversation with so many insights. If you've been loving the Satiated Podcast and want to give back, please consider joining Satiated+ where you can donate as low as $3.00 to help keep the show going. You can find the link in the show notes. Now, let's dive in. Welcome Pavini! I'm really excited to have you here today. I'm so glad that you reached out and that we got connected. And I first just want to get started in how you personally got into the work that you do in the world.
Pavini Moray 03:16
Yeah. Thank you so much, Stephanie for having me. The threads weave together, don't they, and when we're tracking the golden line through our life and so I started out as a Montessori teacher, and when that was complete, knew that I was really curious about working with bodies and sexuality. So became trained as a sexlogical body worker, and after doing that for a few years, realized that it was not my forte, although I did really love working with sexuality, and which just led to a lot of focus on embodiment work. And when we're focusing on sex and embodiment, what else is in the room? Of course, it's trauma. So did a deep dive into working with folks who had sexual trauma, and then kind of that started to feel like my work there was complete. Not complete, but just my interests started to weave other places, and became really interested in relationships and the dynamics and the intimacies of how we create connection between us, and like how that works and how that doesn't work, which led to starting a school: sex, bodies and relationships. Out of that came this real interest in embodied leadership and how do we as, because I was a leader in my school, right? And so it was the first time I had been in Boston, how do we hold our power in our bodies with integrity, and so that's kind of the very abbreviated version of the winding road that's been me.
Stephanie Mara 04:46
Yeah, wow. I really hear that you've kind of trusted yourself in the process of where you are being called to support and guide others on their journey. And I'm wondering in regard to this path that you're on now with leadership, what do you feel like that has revealed so far about you know, I find that stepping into a leadership role is taking a hard look at ourselves and the relationship that we have with ourselves.
Pavini Moray 05:16
Yeah. I mean, I think what has become really clear is that all of the relationship dynamics that I was so interested in, the underlying thing is power, and who feels like they have agency, and who feels like they're disempowered, and who is using power in ways that are ethical and caring about other people's humanity and who's using power under and so, yeah, and it really came through my experience of holding power and just being really convinced that I was going to be an awesome boss, you know, like, I was like, oh god, I've had so many bad bosses in my life, like we all have, right? And so you think, if you're a parent, you're like, oh, well, I'm a parent, right? Well, I'm the boss. And then you get there and you're like, oh, there are so many things that I didn't understand about what it is to be in a leadership role. There are so many considerations that people who are leaders are facing, that people who have not been in leadership just don't have any reference for right? And so I felt really committed to, for example, making sure that the people who are working for me got paid. And so that meant, you know, often that, like, it was me making personal sacrifices, or racing across town at 4:30 on a Friday to make sure that the deposit got to the bank so they could be paid. Right? When you take on leadership, you take on responsibility for other people's wellness and livelihood, and that's a really big deal, and that matters to do it right. The path of leadership is just fraught with just, like, kind of, when you get into relationship, and all the places that you thought were like, oh, I'm good there, like, show up. You wouldn't show up. It's the same with leadership, right? Because it's the relationship with yourself and the people you're leading, the places that need work or that need healing, really show up. And so it's a very humbling experience to step into leadership. It's vulnerable. Just really, I have a lot of compassion for folks who are in leadership.
Stephanie Mara 07:08
Yeah, I completely agree with that. You know, something that we connected around before our call was, how do we step into self leadership? And I really hear that of even if someone listening to this has been a leader currently is of other people. You know, there is this journey of, how do we lead ourselves? And I find that especially with everything we talk about here on the podcast in relationship with food, there's a big aspect of that, of putting that power back in ourselves and less in like external diets or people or other external authorities, of only we know what is best for ourselves, and I'm curious what you've discovered on your journey around how to start to be that leader, also for ourself and even sometimes our own body.
Pavini Moray 07:55
I mean, there's 1000 voices pulling us in every direction, right? And lots of experts and people who have advice. And, you know, I think I'll just tell a story. I think it'll it'll illustrate it. Do you know the coffee, the bullet coffee, with the butter in it? This was years ago. I got super excited about it. I was like, oh gosh, yeah, this is the path, right? Dave Asprey, bulletproof coffee, the path! Yes, I finally found the path. You know, it wasn't the path at all. I remember my somatic coach very gently saying to me, oh, Pavini, it seems like maybe you're on, you know, trying to find follow someone else's path and like, and I think that that's so human. We want answers. We want it to be clear. We want that clarity, right? Because when we are on the path, it feels so good. And we like, know what we're supposed to be doing. And, you know, and like, I could just follow Dave Asprey's approach, and like, I'm golden, except it wasn't. It didn't work for me. The moral of that story, right, is that there is never a path other than our own. We can never be off our path. We are always on it, no matter how far astray we might feel ourselves to be, right, but like and it's just uniquely our own. And so you mentioned the self trust piece, right? And for me, that's about, how do I get quiet enough to hear what the quietest voice in my belly is saying? And for me, that's my practice of alignment, right? It's like, is there anything if I close my eyes and I sit and I get really, really, really quiet for a long time, is there anything that disrupts that stillness when I consider a particular move or choice, whether we do know what's best for us, and it's a process of like getting rid of all the other stuff that's in the way so that we can connect with it? Does that answer the question?
Stephanie Mara 09:34
Oh, yeah, I completely agree with that, and I love your description of of hearing the quietest voice inside. And I find that I talk a lot about trauma here, too, and even my own past with trauma and that that for so long, broke my trust in myself, in my body that I couldn't even hear that quietest voice inside me, and then felt once I started practicing like frustrated with, well, where is it? And it had been, I want to use the word suppressed, but I don't know if that's quite it. It had been in hiding because it didn't know that it was safe to come out or that I would listen and so it would take, sometimes all day to hear something really subtle, or it would take weeks to hear something at all. I find that that's a piece. Even when you know those who are healing their relationship with food, which I know, again, a lot of people come to this podcast to receive support around is that you know, it's like they should just know, like, shouldn't we just know how to eat or what to do, and we don't, you know, especially if there is past trauma, it breaks that trust in ourselves. So I love that you pointed to the quietest voice, because it is that practice of getting still to hear that, it also won't come forth right away. I'm wondering your experience of hearing that for yourself.
Pavini Moray 11:06
Yes, you're right. That trauma breaks self trust, and then it becomes our job to regain that right. And it's you don't have to. It's not an obligation. You get to if you want to right. And it takes time, and it takes effort, and it takes work, and lots of little wins along the way. You know, for me, I think the self trust, what it gives me is, I don't know if this is the right word, but it's like a lack of loneliness, like when I am trusting myself and I'm trusting my choices, and this is after a lot of healing work wasn't like you said, people think they should just but we don't. We've lost it, right? So we have to, we have to work to regain it, or we get to work to regain it. And so it gives me a lack of loneliness and a confidence, like, for example, I wrote a dissertation, and it took a year of pretty much daily writing and finishing something like that, give me a lot of self trust, right? Because I finished a huge thing that I didn't feel like I could ever finish. And I think that those wins when we get them, it's really important to own them and to embody them and to celebrate them, like, internally, to celebrate, like, yeah, I did that, right? Those are, like, all of these steps back to self trust, right? If we took 10,000 steps away from it, we have to take 10,000 steps back towards it. So celebrating those little wins of like, I completed a thing, or I said I was going to do that thing, and I did that thing, or, oh, this isn't feeling right. I'm going to remove myself from this situation. All of these ways that we have to attune to what our system is, the information that we're receiving from our system.
Stephanie Mara 12:45
Yeah, that self trust piece is so crucial when we're trying to cultivate a very different relationship with ourselves. I really appreciate that you also brought in that it's a choice like you don't have to.
Pavini Moray 12:59
And it's okay to take breaks and it's okay to rest.
Stephanie Mara 13:02
Yeah, I'm curious what else you have found, even in the process of self leadership, there's also is this how do I make decisions, especially when sometimes that process has been so externally influenced, like, oh, I make this decision because this person told me to do that, or I make this decision, because this what is, what feels like the right thing to do. You know, I'm wondering what you have found in your leadership work of the process to make decisions that feels in alignment with ourselves?
Pavini Moray 13:33
Yeah, I think there's often a lot of little decisions that have to be made. We're thinking about it as just one big decision, like, should I get an MBA, or should I go to massage school, for example. And it looks like one decision, oh, it's this or it's that, right? But it's actually a lot of you know, how much time do I want to give myself to feel into this? Who else might I want to invite into this conversation with me? What are my long term goals, right? All of these questions. And I think that that pressure that we put on ourselves when we're faced with a big decision is not very useful, like sometimes, one of the things that I say in the morning is I am a swift sword of discernment. And sometimes that's true, sometimes I am a swift sword of discernment. I aim for being a right speeded sort of discernment, moving at the right speed. And sometimes that means it's going to take several months to make a decision, and sometimes it means that it's it needs, like, I'm just going to press send in that email. I'm not going to overthink it. There's not a blanket right timing for things. And so, like, that's one of the smaller parts of making a decision right is like, just spending the right amount of time for this decision. And I would say the other thing that I often do is, like, body checks, right? And I'm sure folks listening are familiar with that, if, like, really, like, what's my gut say about this? What's my heart say about this? What are my genitals say about this? How is my system responding to this possibility? On many levels. And I don't know you're probably familiar with internal family systems, IFS parts work, so like that's another tool that I use is asking all the parts. And an example is, when I was considering closing my company, there were a lot of parts that had skin in the game, that had been working their butts off, right? And so it felt like it needed to be a consensus decision, but there's a lot of parts. And so I made a form, like a questionnaire online, and then I had all of my parts go through it individually, like all the parts who had skin in the game went through this questionnaire and answered it, and then at the end I had this, like, huge spreadsheet of data, of like, what each part thought about this decision, right? And so I feel like that also, if like, not pushing through the quieter parts, not being internally bullying to ourselves, not making the decisions that that we're supposed to make, and really allowing ourselves spaciousness to feel into like, oh, what is the right next thing here? And it's, it is, like you said, it's subtle, right? It's not. Sometimes things are blaring and it's and it's very clear, but often there's like, a subtlety to it and a nuance that we can be available for on an embodied level. So those are some some tools that I've used.
Stephanie Mara 16:11
I love that. That sounds fascinating to like have time with each of your parts to understand what is informing this decision. And I know that many may not have the time before they need to, like, eat a meal, to check in with, like, all their parts that have a say, but I'd be really curious about even utilizing that in a way of anything that you're thinking about in relationship with your food or your body, like, really taking time to go through, like, okay, the inner perfectionist, the inner worrier, the inner child, the inner teenager, and like, have them all kind of come forth in what their say is, because it does get confusing. And I find that the confusing part, I'm glad that you brought in the parts work, is that it's confusing, because each part needs something different. One part comes in and they're like, oh, you should definitely make this decision, because that's protecting them from something. And then at another point in time, you feel like a walking, talking contradiction, because another part comes in is like, no, no, you have to make this decision around this. And so, yeah, just kind of giving them all a voice. And I appreciate also that you named, like not making any of them wrong. They're all present for a reason, and they all have a say for a reason. And in kind of hearing out the committee, you know, then you can kind of move forth with, okay, I hear all of the parts and what they need in this and you know now also what does like my present day and maybe even my future self need as well.
Pavini Moray 17:48
I love that one. I often think about decisions from what is the right now decision? Is it in service to my right now goals, or is it in service to my long term goals and holding that distinction and not necessarily making, always making the decision that's in service to my long term goals, but holding that distinction. And so when I do make a choice that is not in service to my long term goals, that is in service to my immediate desires or needs, right to at least acknowledge it, because I feel like that is also a practice of self trust. Because I don't want to get down the road and be hating on my past self, I want to be like, oh yeah, past self was making, they were doing the best they could. They were making the choices, we had conversations about that, I was, you know, so that there is a kindness that is being expressed to ourselves.
Stephanie Mara 18:33
Yeah, I was actually reflecting yesterday on just the experience of regret. Well, you were making the best decisions that you could and regret comes in as kind of a hindsight experience of what you know now, but the you that made that decision didn't know what you know now. And so I think it's also sometimes seeing the wisdom in each phase of ourselves, even if it's like today me and tomorrow me. Today me is doing the best they can, and tomorrow me may know something different, but I can't hate on today me she didn't know.
Pavini Moray 19:10
Right. And regret, you know, I think it's often about unprocessed grief that there is more to be mourned. You know, we didn't have access to the support or the resources that we needed, and so that can when we have regret, it can often be pointed at ourselves. But what is there to be grieved there? What is there that the loss that we didn't have that just needs some space to like, howl and cry and sob?
Stephanie Mara 19:38
Yeah, I find that is such an important part of any journey is that grief piece. I do talk about that here, of even when someone is healing, like their relationship with food, that there is going to be grief on that journey, because what you're tapping into is also what didn't happen, or what you didn't get, or what you needed. That wasn't able to be met. And so even when you're stepping into what can sound like, oh my gosh, self empowerment and self leadership, that sounds so great. Of course, I would want that. But also, there is a grief in that of what made you step out of feeling like you could lead yourself, and how you potentially lost that at some point. Yeah, I'm wondering what you've seen that grief process be like on a leadership journey.
Pavini Moray 20:29
The thought that came to my mind is like, oh gosh, I would not want to follow someone's leadership if they didn't have good grief skills. The facility of being able to let grief move through your body, frequently deeply as much as it wants to, as much as it needs to, without getting stuck and lost in it. For me internally, it feels like a shower. The capacities that I want to see in leadership are people who have emotional fluency and who are in touch with their sensations and their emotions, and not necessarily like run by them, but include those as important information. And so you know, spiritual leaders who do, I'm thinking of, like Miki Kashtan, who's a NVC leader. She's more than that, but you know, in her capacity for grief and being with what is right is so profound, and that's who I am going to trust in leadership, not people who are trying to brush it under the rug or acting out their feelings on other people, but like the processes of allowing emotions to move through, to inhabit and move through the body without without a stuckness. My practice is dance for that movement and dance.
Stephanie Mara 21:41
Yeah, I was just about to ask like, how you incorporate and weave in the somatic piece, because I know that is also a piece that you incorporate. And you pointed to embodiment earlier, and I'm wondering, like, yeah, I feel like when we're stepping into being a leader of ourselves and our life journey, that the somatic piece is so crucial, because we have to get in touch with our body and our relationship with our body to be able to even know what resonates with us and what doesn't.
Pavini Moray 22:13
Yeah, that's right.
Stephanie Mara 22:14
Besides dance, what else have you incorporated?
Pavini Moray 22:18
I have a practice of being in water. I have a cedar hot tub, and I incorporate stretching every day, breath work, touch base practices, different kinds of movements over the years, you know, like intentional, conscious movement, practices like Aikido. You know, it varies for everybody. What like my practices aren't like, inherently better or worse than anybody else's, right, but it's like, what brings out the aliveness in you? You know? Where do you feel like, oh, like, for me, the dance floor was a safe place to start to explore sensation in my body and to start to be able to place my attention in my body and feel what was happening there. And it was the place that I learned to let grief, you know, a song would come on, and I would just be consumed with grief, and I would keep moving, and like sobbing on the dance floor, and keep moving, keep dancing, right? And then, like, lo and behold, three minutes later, a different song comes on, and it's like, ah, you know, it's everything's so beautiful, my heart is so loving, and like, I'm so joyful. And like that practice of not getting attached to either of those things, not the grief or the joy, right? And like, came from embodied movement practice for me, in particular, five rhythms. It's the dance practice that I've done for almost 20 years. Yes, my body has changed, like I've had to adapt my practices, you know, as I've aged, to meet where my body is now. And I think that that's another beautiful practice of self trust, of like following what is now, what is now, what is now, in this organism that I've chosen to inhabit for this space of maybe 85 years, right? Hopefully. What's possible now, what is emergent now? And really tracking.
Stephanie Mara 24:00
Yeah, I love that you brought in also this piece of what lights you up like what actually does connect you back with yourself. Because I find in this somatic realm, there are a lot of suggestions now, because it's a modality that is getting more popular, but each person is unique, and so one person's practice is going to look entirely different to another. I really like to dispel that meditation isn't going to be everybody's practice. It's kind of been like the gold star for so long that everyone should meditate, and if you are in a fight or flight response that might be too much stillness for your system to be able to handle. And so it, you know, yeah, it is kind of playing and experimenting and finding the things that work best for you. And I totally agree with you in that it evolves. My main is yoga I've been practicing probably since I was around 18 or 20 years old, and I could probably get into, like, back bends much easier in my like early 20s. And now I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, I cannot do this as easily as I could, maybe, you know, two decades ago. So yeah, it also evolves in, how do I meet myself now? And I find that that is also such a part of stepping into that relationship with ourselves and being able to guide ourselves is also that self listening of, okay, this may be something that resonated with me at some point, but it actually doesn't work for my body now anymore.
Pavini Moray 25:40
That's right.
Stephanie Mara 25:41
And like bringing in that grief piece, that there can be some grief in like, Wow, I feel sad that this doesn't resonate with me anymore. Ya know I even think about that in relationship with food that sometimes we're eating in a particular way that does resonate with us and our body's like, I'm done with that. Thanks. I need something else now. And that can feel upsetting at first, that our body has changed and is telling us it needs something different. And sometimes there can be that battle.
Pavini Moray 26:11
I particularly love that battle.
Stephanie Mara 26:15
Yeah, say more about that?
Pavini Moray 26:18
Like, oh, I know this is not what my body wants, but I'm gonna just like, oh, you know, it's just, like, a way of not grieving, right? This just happened to me. I've had a body change, and certain kinds of dance became challenging, and my dance teacher's like, oh, well, you can sit in a chair and dance, you can dance on the floor. I'm like, ah, no, I'm not going to dance, because I hate all that. You know, it just like, stay stuck for a year, right? That's a freeze response, like, when we're not willing to do the grief work of of actually changing and letting go of the thing that was so that we can move into the thing that is, yeah, it's a freeze response. Like, what is it when we get attached to something that was, right? Was something that was in the past, that isn't going to be or isn't right now, at least, you know, we're not current, we're not present. We're in a fight with reality.
Stephanie Mara 27:03
I noticed some like, as you described it as a freeze response and a resistance to the grief. Oh, I noticed some tingles. I was like, yeah, that is what that is, that it's like, yeah, we're just trying not to feel the pain that our body has changed, and we need something different, and also the grief of that we found something that worked for so long and doesn't anymore, the grief of saying goodbye to a former expression of ourselves and that we have changed. And so often, I find that all the talk about self evolution is always looking forward. What's hitting me right now is just the grief of also saying goodbye to what was and former expressions of ourselves, and even on a trauma healing journey like yes, of course, you want to heal and you want to feel more vibrant in your life, but also that person that you knew with all of these coping mechanisms, there's some grief in saying goodbye to that expression of yourself as well, because you've known that you for so long.
Pavini Moray 28:08
I've been talking about it recently as the costs of healing. That healing costs us things. Of course, it does, right? Like it's not all sunshine and roses, that, like it costs us parts of ourselves, that we cost us strategies that we're very familiar and well worn. It costs us relationships. It costs us not being able to stay because we can't pay the price of admission to the relationship of like not bringing our truth. There are definite cost to healing. And I just don't think that that's talked about very much. And I wish that it was, you know, I wish that there was more dialogue around it, because I think it's like, it's fair to set people up of like, this is going to be amazing. You're going to get amazing benefits out of this. You're not going to regret doing this. And just, you know, fair warning, right? That this is part of it. This is what it takes.
Stephanie Mara 28:57
I completely agree with that. I don't think that it's talked enough about. And I feel like I've had that conversation with quite a few people at this point in sessions that they're like, I was not expecting this was what the work was going to be. I was like, I just want to end my binge eating. Like, can't we just, like, end that, and that I'm just good. And then, you know, we're talking about their childhood, and we're talking about past trauma, and we're talking about all of these wounds and things that our body's still holding on to, and ways that we've disconnected from ourselves. And yeah, it reveals so much that the way sometimes that we've created our current life is the wounded self that made those decisions out of protection. And so I agree with what you're saying of it sometimes we lose friendships. Sometimes we have to take a hard look at all areas of our life and say, wow. Like is this working for the me that I'm learning myself to be, and who I want to be in the world? And a lot of that is that grief piece of to be able to step into what actually feels in alignment with ourselves, as we come back into connection with ourselves, can also feel scary and overwhelming and sometimes daunting and then it's like, well, you know, maybe the binge eating is easier.
Pavini Moray 30:24
And that's the choice, right? We get to make that choice, yeah.
Stephanie Mara 30:27
Yeah. So I completely agree what you're talking about. You know, when you're going on any healing journey, it's just being aware, you know, of that, like, oh, I may find out things about myself that I didn't know, and that may bring into question how I'm living my life. And you get to take as many baby steps as you need towards that. And like you just said, and keep reiterating like, it's your choice, you can go as far down as that path as you want, and you can be like, this is a stopping point for me. I'm gonna get off the train here and maybe stick here for a little while. I'm wondering for you how you have felt into the journey of grief and, like, let it evolve, and when you knew maybe there was, like, a stopping point. Like, how did you know I think I need to stop here and not move forward.
Pavini Moray 31:19
Oh, I hope I never stop here. And I feel like I take breaks pauses. I do not believe that I'm here solely to heal, that that's the purpose of my life, and I am very interested in continually being at the growth edge of my capacity. I want to be someone who gives and receives love effortlessly. That's what I'm here to do. And so that is ever evolving, you know, and it's a paradox, right? Of like that, I don't believe that I'm broken. I don't believe that there's, like, anything in me that any part in me that is bad or, you know, wrong, and I'm focusing my attention on other things besides healing, but like, it's also just a continual thread of my life of personal evolution and growth and creating more capacity deliberately. I have that experience with someone who I'm close with in my life, of them getting to the point of being like, okay, this is it no further, and like, okay, well, that's where you are. That's I get it. It hurts too much to go further. It limits how much we can be in relationship. There's a limit there, and I respect that. That's what you want to do, that's your capacity. You don't want to increase that. And I have to be okay with that. Again, it's a really personal decision of what we're up for, you know, and what's important to us and what matters and what we're pursuing and who we want to be. Those are deep questions. They're constant questions. It's not like I have a vision board, right? And every couple months I look at it, I'm like, oh God, I want those things. I was reading my affirmations that I wrote six months ago. I'm like, God, I don't want half of these things anymore. I want other things, you know? So there's this constant flow.
Stephanie Mara 33:01
Oh my gosh, I'm the exact same way. I've taken breaks, but I approach the journey in a very similar way, in that there's always places that I can grow or explore or dive deeper into. So I really resonated with that. And something that popped up for me just as you were talking about your friend that I've seen is also like when you want to keep going further, like anyone who's listening to this, and sometimes there feels like you can't, because if you went further, you'd go beyond where your parents or your lineage has gone. I'm very curious if you have any thoughts around that of, okay, you're nodding. So, like, there can be this like, oh my gosh. There's like, this brink that sometimes is a little edgy. There's a grief process to be like, oh, if I take a step further into this, I'm going to be going somewhere that nobody in my family has ever gone. So I don't have kind of a path anymore.
Pavini Moray 34:03
Here's what I believe about this, is that our ancestors prayed for us when they were alive. They prayed for their descendants, even the ones who didn't know us. And I know that they did this because I do this right like I pray for my descendants, even the ones they will never know and I pray for their expanded lives, for their good lives, for them to go way beyond where I am, for them to, like, evolve humanity into a species that can live harmoniously with the planet. Like, wow. Wouldn't that be amazing, right? I want that for them. And, you know, I think that there is the phrase toxic loyalty came into my mind of when our loyalties to people who came before us, our parents, our grandparents, our other family members, when those loyalties we are afraid to step out. Beyond where they went, right? Because we're afraid it's going to break the relationship. I mean, you have to wonder, like, how's the relationship if you being an amazing dream flower, right? Your ancestors, dream flower in blossom, can break the relationship with your parents? Like, there's stuff there that needs to be talked about, you know, is what I'm thinking, because it's like a healthy flow from our behind us, the ones who became before to the forward ones. Is like just loving that, wanting that expansion, wanting that blossoming to happen. So toxic loyalties are hard, and they often are in families where, you know, there's a lot of trauma and a lot of transgenerational trauma, people get really loyal to it. You know that this is how we show belonging. This is how we meet our need for belonging. Is by staying loyal to these set of beliefs or these practices, or we see this all the time. And so it's like, how do you do the both? And how does it not have to be of like, oh, well, if I'm going to become more then I must break with the past. Like, how do you I imagine a world where both are possible at the same time, where I'm holding love for that person who's like, yeah, this far, no further. I'm like, ah, I love you. You know, I am not angry with you. I'm accepting of where that is. And like, do I wish it was different? Yeah, but that's where it is, and I'm not limiting myself and I'm not shaming them. So that's kind of the both and approach that I imagine there.
Stephanie Mara 36:25
Yeah, that's really powerful. You know, just to again, because so many people come here in regards to their relationship with food, what it makes me think of of this toxic loyalty is also how much we get this example of how we're like supposed to be in relationship with food by what we learn from our families and our grandparents and the normal, the normalcies that we create around food, and ya know I see this a lot for people, is like, if diet culture was very much a part of their family, and you want to step out of that, that it's like, hey, I can honor that that is their path, and they're not ready to step out of that yet. And that for me and my well being like I do, and I don't have to disrespect their path, but I do have to respect my own and what I need. And so just that toxic loyalty as a concept is so powerful, just to start to be curious about, like, what are you being loyal to? And does that deserve your loyalty like you were starting to point to, oftentimes, that does come out of trauma. And is that a relationship that you know, if you saw that relationship play out for a friend, would you be giving them different guidance than what you are doing for yourself? I always like to give like, a little baby step for people to start exploring, like we've gone through a lot of different things today, I'm wondering, just in coming back around this idea of, like, being guided by oneself and stepping into this self leadership, there were a lot of little pieces that you already provided. But I'm wondering, like for someone listening to this, what would be a baby step that maybe you would offer for them to start to explore?
Pavini Moray 38:09
It's a funny suggestion. Smell something beautiful. Find something that you love, an essential oil or a flower, or whatever it is, find something that you love and smell it every day, just for the sake of beauty and delight. Because, like, when we're doing this healing work, like, we're often thinking of it as work. We're not thinking of it as play, we're not thinking of it as pleasure, we're not thinking of it as delight. We're like, we're serious, we are healing, right? And like, I don't think that that is, I think that that is, um, internalized capitalism, actually. So to do something every day for the sake of delight is like the most anti capitalist thing you can do. And when you're smelling something, you are instantly in the present, in body, like you can't smell things in the past or the future. You can maybe conjure a memory of what something smells like, but you can't actually smell it, using our sense of smell to bring us into the present, and to do it with pleasure.
Stephanie Mara 39:05
Absolutely love that. You know, what that makes me think of is on any healing journey, what I often find is we need to start to learn how to feel safe. Feeling safe, you know, one of the most vulnerable experiences actually safety and happiness and joy, because usually the other experiences, we want them to go away, like we don't want anger to stick around. We don't want sadness or depression to hang around too long. But when we're experiencing something that's pleasurable, like you're pointing to, it's also being both with the amazing, safe, enjoyable experience of that, and also starting to practice feeling the grief of when you need to end that experience and move forth towards something else. I love that suggestion. I think it's fantastic just to start to give yourself a moment to start to learn what does feeling good feel like in your body, and then also feeling the sadness when you know you need to move on from it. Well, I so appreciate your time and your wisdom here today. I'm curious how those who are listening here can keep in touch with you and all the amazing things that you're doing.
Pavini Moray 40:17
So I have a weekly substack called Glitter Joy Ride. I'm writing weekly essays on how to be human, like the nuances of humanity, and like silly things, like how to hang something heavy on the wall, and also like deep things, like how to set a boundary and still stay connected. And that's really the best, like most cutting edge way, because I'm, you know, it's every week, and so it feels like a tender relationship with the folks who are reading those essays. And like it just feels very connected to me. So that's one way. I have a new book coming out in January called Tending The Bones, and it's about healing transgenerational sexual trauma by connecting with ancestors. And it's a 13 month approach, ritualized approach, and I'll be teaching a class on that this spring. And my website, pavanimoray.com, I work with folks who are wanting to be leaders and have embodied leadership as part of their practice. And that work has been really fun, as I've been doing like stuff with movement leaders, like, really getting them aligned in their bodies with like, the stuff that's, like, really important right now in our world. So those are ways that folks can connect with me, and I welcome it. I like being in connection with people.
Stephanie Mara 41:27
That's awesome. Congratulations on your book that is so exciting.
Pavini Moray 41:31
Thanks. Yeah, I'm pretty excited about it.
Stephanie Mara 41:33
Yeah. Well, I will put all of those links in the show notes, and again, just thank you for being here and sharing you and your wisdom and all the glitter that you have to offer.
Pavini Moray 41:44
I also thank you, Stephanie, I think the work that you're doing is really necessary and profound. I wish that I had met you 25 years ago, could have worked with you as a practitioner when I needed it then, because, like, what you're doing is really powerful.
Stephanie Mara 41:58
Thank you so much. I really appreciate that, and so glad that we got connected. Well to everyone listening as always if you have any questions, reach out via my email support@stephaniemara.com. I'll leave both of our contact info in the show notes, and I hope you all have a regulating and safety producing rest of the day, and I will connect with you all again soon. Bye!
Keep in touch with Pavini:
Website: www.pavinimoray.com
Substack:https://pavinimoray.substack.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pavinicoakwellmoray/
Books: How To Hold Power