Ditch Wellness and Diet Culture and Enter the New Year with Body Trust
Welcome to the Satiated Podcast where we explore physical and emotional hunger, satiation and healing your relationship with your food and body. I'm your host Stephanie Mara Fox, your Somatic Nutritional Counselor. I'm so excited to introduce you all to Abbie Attwood. Abbie is an anti diet nutritionist with a master's in nutrition. She owns a private practice called Abbie Attwood Wellness that provides virtual nutrition therapy and body image coaching to her clients through one on one counseling and group programs. Abbie's philosophy is rooted in intuitive eating, fat positive, weight inclusive care and the Health at Every Size paradigm. Her story involves the collision of competitive running anxiety and autoimmune diseases that gave rise to an eating disorder earlier in her life. After recovering, she was determined to help others heal their relationship with food movement and their body so that they can live a more authentic and fulfilling life. Welcome, Abbie.
Abbie Attwood 01:05
Oh, hi! It's so nice to be here.
Stephanie Mara 01:08
I'm just thrilled to dive in with you today. And you know, I've been following you on social media for a while and just really excited to just talk about all the juicy things we can get into at this time of year.
Abbie Attwood 01:19
I am too it's like a melting pot for I always say like January is national dieting month. I don't know when this will release but we are, gosh, we're like two days away from Christmas. And so like, you know, we'll get the New Year New You messaging very soon. But it's a very confusing time of year for people coming out of diet culture. I feel like because diet culture is such a shapeshifter. So it's almost like now it's so sneaky. It's like, yes, of course eat whatever you want during the holidays. And then it's like the smackdown January 1, right? Like, it's just such a gosh, it's anyways, I could go on, but it is certainly a time.
Stephanie Mara 01:32
Yeah, it's a really confusing time. Because, you know, I think I saw someone once write about how, you know, diet culture is the biggest gaslighter it's like, oh, do this, that'll solve everything. And then it kind of turns around on you and it's like, Oh, why did you do that? That's not what we're talking about anymore. And so it is really confusing. And you know, I'd love to, just before we even dive in, like, how did you personally get into this work? And would love to hear more about your backstory.
Abbie Attwood 02:24
Yeah. Oh, that's like one of those things where it's like, do you want the 30 seconds? Or the three hours? You know. I'll try and go somewhere in between. Um, well, you know, I think, generally, I was very lucky to grow up with a pretty healthy relationship to food and my body. I think a lot of that was privilege, though, thin privilege, financial privilege, right. But it wasn't until college that I started struggling with food. And mainly it was because I was finally exposed to other people's dieting behaviors, like I was, I think, looking back, I was in such a bubble growing up, like I was very protected from it. I didn't have dieting parents, I was in a smaller body. So no one was like policing my body and my food choices. And then honestly, I think back and most of my friendships like it really didn't center around that at all, I was lucky. But in college, I definitely started getting exposed to it, which was really confusing to me at first, just really not having been ever observing that kind of thing, like the, you know, diet foods and the you know, just the restriction and the even that kind of like binge drinking, and then restrict all day kind of behavior in college, that was really alarming. And it was seductive. So it started playing a role in my own relationship with food. But around the same time, I also started having some autoimmune issues. And that led me down the rabbit hole of Dr. Google, of you know, okay, what do you do if you have this right. And that led me to starting to eliminate foods and that snowballed. And I think anyone who started to take something out of their diet can relate to the just, it just becomes this Tumbleweed of like, now, what else can I eliminate? Now, what else can I eliminate? And you find all these other protocols and all sorts of things, right? So it that started spiraling. At the same time, I was getting more and more competitive and running. And so I guess we're like in 2010 at this point. And so that's when my disordered eating really like really came to fruition. And it was really, you know, kind of like you said, when you introduced me like it was this collision of all of these things like my mental health. I had been struggling with anxiety since I was a little kid with panic attacks, all of these autoimmune diagnoses. Then the running culture of like being very restrictive to quote unquote, be faster, which I can get into that does not work. It led me down this really dark path of disordered eating. And so kind of to answer your question in my recovery from that, is really what made me want to do what I do today. I mean, it stole so many years of my life from me, and it stole so much of myself, like, I look back, and I don't recognize myself for a lot of that time. And I just kind of feel like I didn't want anyone else to go through that. And I also started recognizing at the time, what I have learned more and more now and firmly planted in this HAES aligned, weight inclusive space, but really the social justice aspect of it. And I guess I could, I can fill in more details, but I'll kind of a pause there. That's really what led me to go back to school and want to get into this, like counseling people and working with people. And I feel really lucky because I feel like on the one hand, had I never stumbled into disordered eating, like, I have no idea what I'd be doing now. Maybe I'd be doing something really wonderful. And that's kind of the irony of it, too, is like, it also led me to doing this thing. And so it's almost like, oh, what else? What did it take for me in that sense? Like, what other profession could I have gone into? Do you know what I mean?
Stephanie Mara 06:27
I do. I do. Yeah.
Abbie Attwood 06:28
Yeah. But I feel lucky. And that, like, I do feel like really called to do this. And I, every day, I love what I do. So I yeah, I feel really fortunate.
Stephanie Mara 06:40
I so resonated with so many pieces in there that I actually, in my early 20s had severe digestive issues. And so was, what else can I take out? What else modality can I do? Oh, is this Candida? Oh I'll do a Candida protocol. Oh, is this SIBO? I'll do a SIBO protocol. And it gets like you have this tunnel vision of Ooh, could it could it actually be like that my body feels unsafe? Like a lot of what I talk about here is just, you know, nervous system regulation, how sometimes our you know, past patterns are coming out of trauma, or current patterns coming out from past trauma, and that it wasn't necessarily always about the food. It was about what was going on inside of my body that I was living in a certain state, but it got so focused on if I just get the food, right, I won't be in digestive pain anymore. And it is really painful, because then suddenly, you're eating like five different things. You're like, wait a second, like, why am I not eating that anymore, and just this intense fear that also gets created around foods that you've taken out that when you're really down the line, you kind of forget why you took it out to begin with.
Abbie Attwood 07:56
I empathize with this so much. So I didn't, I have so many strange health things that I've gone through that I didn't list them all out for you. But one of the things that that I did grew up with, since I was really little is really intense digestive pain ended up actually having gallbladder disease and getting my gallbladder removed. When I was in middle school, which is really rare, like normally you see that in people over 40. But I had really severe digestive pain, like you were talking about you that you experienced. And, you know, we don't talk about this enough in general, but childhood digestive issues are one of the number one risk factors for developing an eating disorder. And it's no, it's no surprise, why if you're someone who's gone through it, because if you become so desperate, like if you if you have to like rush to the bathroom, anytime you're out or like I would be curled up, I remember laying in the back of my friend's car after going out to dinner, like just crying because I was in so much agony, you know, and you'll do anything you're like, of course. So of course you go to the SIBO Protocol, or the Candida and you start distrusting Western medicine. And you start like thinking, well, no one can help me no one's providing me a diagnosis. So I need to figure this out myself. And that's when you go to Google and you write like, and that's when you do all those like protocols and eliminations. And all the while, like you said the thread was actually that I had intense anxiety, OCD, and panic disorder as a kid that no one treated. And so was my IBS, about something functionally wrong with my gut? No. It was like you said, this state of like, there was a lot of trauma in my childhood, but also like, just this state of feeling unsafe all the time in my body, right? Yeah. And we always like you said, go to food because that's what diet culture trains us to do. And I don't think I've ever had a client that I've worked with coming out of their disordered relationship with food who doesn't have a digestive issue? because they are so tightly tied together.
Stephanie Mara 10:03
Yeah, absolutely, completely agree with that. And it's also if it started at such a young age, that was the only thing that was potentially in your control as an option. That's just like, oh, well, I can choose what to eat or what not to eat. Because I don't know how else to navigate what's showing up in my body, because you might not even have the language to describe what's going on. And then if you don't grow up with maybe parents who understand how to, like, meet you in that space, which, like, all parents are doing the best they can, but they potentially don't know how to meet you and your anxiety because I totally hear you. I was a very anxious kid as well. That it's just like, oh, I don't know how to navigate this. Oh, like, I could just put all my focus on my food and my body, and then maybe that will do something.
Abbie Attwood 10:49
Yes, yes, I know. Parents. I know. My parents did their best, but they, they didn't recognize it. My parents were doctors. They're retired now. But I remember as a little kid, I went through like a multiple year phase where I would make my mom's A cardiologist was a cardiologist, I would make my mom with her stethoscope, I made her bring it home. I made her listen to my heart every night before I went to bed and tell me that like I wasn't going to die in my sleep. Like, and yet no one, no onw thought, well, this is not probably...
Stephanie Mara 11:25
What's going on here? There's maybe something we need to explore...
Abbie Attwood 11:32
Yeah, it's that kind of stuff. Like I was such an anxious kid. And, you know, I was highly functional, right? Like, I was very social. And I was a joyful kid. And I did all the things. And I was tons of friends and like, never had an you know, I was, I was, quote, unquote, popular. So no one really looked at that, like thought that there might be something going on with my mental health. But as time went on, I think it was just so destructive to these, my body, you know, and that also, what's the irony of all of that are the same people who have the temperament for anxiety. And having that same temperament is what can lead someone down the path of like orthorexia, or disordered eating right. Like, it's that like desire to achieve that, that perfectionism. It's that stress. And that pressure you put on yourself and all of those things. Also, guess what, they also put you at risk for IBS. And then we're trapped in this wellness culture that says, well, it's probably gluten. That's what's going to solve all this right. And then you feel like a failure when it doesn't. Right.
Stephanie Mara 12:42
Yeah. And I'm glad you're even bringing in to wellness culture as well, because I think, yeah, diet culture, we really know that like how toxic diet culture is, but wellness culture also has gone there as well. That I think, yeah, that now it's, it's very actually similar as diet culture, in that it has same rules, same regulations, and it's like, oh, this is, this is the good thing to do, this is the bad thing to do, and that it really takes away ultimately your sense of autonomy of like, Can I listen to myself and just trust myself that like, I can eat this Christmas cookie, and I will be fine, regardless of what ingredients are in it. And you know, like, both sides actually give these very confusing messages that ultimately take away our sense of trust within ourselves.
Abbie Attwood 13:29
Absolutely. You said it so well. I mean, wellness culture is this kind of new sneaky version of diet culture, that it's pretending to be about health. And it's pretending to be about your well being. And it also pretends to not be about weight loss, which is a whole like other thing, right? I mean, let's take something like the whole 30. Right, which is very much a diet, but it denies being a diet. And it says it's, it's not about weight loss. But if you take something like that, and you ask people why they're doing it, there's always this like, undercurrent and like assumption that it will lead to weight loss, right? And I asked people, like, if you did that thing that quote unquote, protocol and gained weight, would you thought would you think it was quote unquote, working? No, because you assume that it's going to lead to weight loss, even if it doesn't say that outright. But the other thing is, like you said, I mean, the whole game of wellness culture is the moralization of food. Like, this is good. This is bad. If you eat this, like you're putting yourself at risk for XYZ disease, right? It puts all the response personal responsibility on each individual ignores the social determinants of health ignores socio economic factors ignores like how it's ableist and elitist, and it's about privilege. But it's like well, if you drink that kale juice and eat those seed crackers, and read all your labels and don't eat any sugar, then you are a good person. You are a virtuous person. and you will be healthy and safe.
Stephanie Mara 15:02
Yeah. And I think there's something about that, that even as you were talking, I was just reflecting on, if we don't already know what a sense of safety is in our body, like it kind of like oh, wellness culture, or diet culture perpetuates what we already know. Like, we already know, I can't trust myself. So I'll let you tell me what to do. Or oh, like, I don't know how I feel in my body. So I'll just tell you how I'm supposed to feel when I eat gluten. Like, I can't tell you how many people I've worked with when we're like, okay, let's do an experiment. Let's take gluten now for two weeks and actually see how you feel well like to actually do the experiment and like, I didn't notice anything, and I'm like, then you're probably fine eating gluten. You know? And then put, but are you sure? Are you really sure I can trust that. And it's like, well, you didn't notice anything. You felt fine. Your digestion didn't change your bodily, like feedback didn't tell you anything else around it digesting differently based off of not eating it. And you don't notice any difference eating it or not eating it, then maybe you'll be fine eating that. And that's where it's just these cultures get into our head to question our own body. And what it's trying to tell us of like, actually, that that does work for me. I feel fine with that.
Abbie Attwood 16:17
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I talk about this a lot. Like it's this body disconnection and body distrust, right? And we're socialized to get to that place like we are. It's by design that we don't, especially folks identifying as female, like, really don't trust our body. And we outsource our inner wisdom, to diet culture, to wellness culture, to nutrition gurus and influencers, to tell us what to do to tell us how to live. And it's also that constant N equals one kind of example of like, if it's working for them, then I should do everything they're doing. It's like those What I Eat in a Day videos on social media, right, like, perpetuating this idea that like behaviors lead to a certain body a certain experience, right? Instead of what is your body telling you, we really were so resistant to the idea that we can trust our bodies, because we've constantly been taught that we can't. It's not just media, it's not just like culture, but it's even like parents, like I have so many clients whose parents have said to them, you know, gosh, I think you need a lot less food than you think you do. Right? I've had so many people telling me that their mother said that to them when they were little, especially when you were a child in a larger body and were in your parents were commenting on your weight, they would tell you, Oh, you can't trust your hunger. Basically, that's what they were saying. And so someone has grown up and live their whole life believing that they can't trust their hunger that they can't trust their body's needs. And so what are we doing, especially when we're dieting or following a wellness protocol, we're actively ignoring our needs, we're actively ignoring our desires, we're telling ourselves, we don't matter. Like, that's literally the message we're giving our body like you don't matter. You can't be trusted, you are unsafe. And so I'm gonna follow these rules. You know, I love what you said about gluten. Because isn't that interesting? It's so problematic, because the opposite can happen where someone will have eliminated it and they're maybe they're convinced it did, it did make a difference. It's the no SIBO effect and the placebo effect at work, right? Like it's not even that we listen to these outside sources about what we should or shouldn't eat, but they actually psychologically convince us that that it's working, right?
Stephanie Mara 18:36
Yeah, there's a cool study that I like to reference that they basically took two groups of individuals and gave them like the same you know, I don't like to talk about calories very much but the same like calorically dense smoothie. And they told one group...
Abbie Attwood 18:49
Is this the milkshake one? Like the smoothie milkshake. I love this study. It's fascinating. Yeah, keep going.
Stephanie Mara 18:55
No, it was okay. I'm glad that you know it. Yeah, I'll just complete this like so. One group, they told the people with the milkshake. Yeah, I was like, It's the smell of the milkshake. Something. Yeah, they're, they're having like a low cal like low, you know, low cow, like low. High protein. Yes. Movie. And then the other group. They're like, Okay, you're a milkshake. It's high fat. It's dense, like, same smoothie, same ingredients, same amount. And that actually the group that was told you are having a high calorie, low fat, high fat, satisfying milkshake. were more satisfied even showed the physiological markers of being more satisfied than the group that was told you're eating a low calorie, low fat milk shake smoothie.
Abbie Attwood 19:41
Yeah, it is really, really fascinating. And the same stuff has been seen like they've, you know, looked at like people doing that they've done this with like dairy and with gluten like people that are convinced that they can't tolerate it, but when they don't know what they're getting, when it's double blinded, they don't feel the difference. It's when You know, you're eating gluten that you actually think you're experiencing these negative ramifications that diet culture and wellness culture have told you you'll experience. So if you go in eating a piece of bread, believing that it's going to give you digestive symptoms, it will. Yeah. And it's not saying like, I think a lot of people hear this and are like, Oh, are you telling me that my, my digestive experience isn't real? Oh, my gosh, no, it's very real. Like the gut brain connection is very real, like you are absolutely experiencing those things. It is not about whether or not you're experiencing it is whether your experience is a result of your beliefs about the food, or the actual chemical makeup of the food itself. And the answer is that it's, it's about our mindset, when we're eating that produces these things.
Stephanie Mara 20:49
Yeah, I think I love that you brought that in, because I think it's for some individuals. Absolutely. If you get diagnosed with celiac disease, yeah, you're right. Absolutely. Reacting to the chemical chemicals. Absolutely. Yeah. Most of the other time, if you're just someone who's been told, maybe I should take this out, we get to bring in a lot of curiosity there. Yeah. Because is it that we're in a fight or flight response, and it actually doesn't have to do with the food itself. It has to do with the state that we're eating that food in which I found that very much for myself, that because I was constantly anxious, I was constantly in a fight or flight response. And honestly, didn't matter what food I was eating, most of the time, my digestion was just shut down, that none of it was really digesting very smoothly.
Abbie Attwood 21:35
I had the same experience. I really did. And there, there are some foods like and I tell people I mean, I think I think when we if we have allergies, or if we have autoimmune conditions, or we have something like celiac disease, and say there are certain foods that we absolutely can't tolerate. I like to remind people that that is intuitive, like that, is your body giving you information and a response, right. It's not listening to external information, it's actually listening to internal, because people will ask, Well, isn't that outsourcing? No, that is the definition of inner wisdom, like your body having an immune response to a certain food, right? So I like to always remind people that there's space in this way of existing with food without rules for medical conditions for allergies, right. But that we do, we have to look at the psychology that's involved in the absence of those diagnoses.
Stephanie Mara 22:26
Yeah, I think it comes back around to that piece around body trust, that you just perfectly set it up. Well, if you do stop eating something, and you experience not having pain anymore, that is also you trusting your body. And it's saying, hey, actually don't feed that to me anymore. That doesn't work for me.
Abbie Attwood 22:44
Yeah. 100%, right. And that to remember that, like, if it's not in an allergy, like if you don't have a diagnosed allergy, right, like celiac disease, pretty much anything else, if you're experiencing something is not this, like hard and fast thing that's going to be there forever, like, our bodies are constantly changing, our microbiome is changing our mental health, the state of our mental health, like, just because of food doesn't sit well with you once doesn't mean it's always going to be that way. And so really, opening ourselves up to like experimenting, and being curious. It's not the end all be all situation with food that we've been taught that it is and, you know, we need to make sure that we're making space for, like, trying things again, and having a neutral approach to that and, and being open to maybe being different.
Stephanie Mara 23:37
Yeah, I always like to tell my story of my relationship with eggs. I mean, I grew up like being totally fine eating eggs, my whole life. And then something like flipped when I got into my 30s. And I was just like, we don't like this anymore. And got like, actually a very dramatic response from my body. When I would start eating this food. I was like, Oh, that's really interesting. Like, something has changed. I don't know what it is, I don't know what has changed in my gut. And so I basically took like, some time off of eating eggs, but it wasn't with the eye, oh, I can never eat this ever again. I have to be like, hyper vigilant to making sure that it's not in anything. I was like, Alright, I'm gonna take some time off. And then I started eating them again. And I was completely fine. So whatever flipped in my body, it can sometimes you just need some space from something. Your gut changes over its lining, I think about every two weeks, something's going to heal, something's going to change where it's okay, let's invite this back in and re experiment with this because something might have changed again. But we're wellness culture comes in and all the cleansing and the detoxing is like, okay, like, something's wrong with you. And we need to like fix this now, where it makes this impression of your body that you can't trust it, that there's like this ebb and flow that it's like, okay, you're communicating something with me. Let me listen to that, then we'll, you know, check that out, maybe communicate in a different way, where it's like, Oh, I gotta keep fixing this first. A lot of people sometimes stuck in the fixing of it, where sometimes that actually just with time, your body is going to fix it all on its own.
Abbie Attwood 25:10
Yeah, 100%. And you know, one of the problems with the way that wellness culture communicates that is that it it feeds into that fear would that food, right like, because if we start feeling like this food, there's this food that we can't eat, then of course, we're going to feel anxiety, eating that food again. And so sometimes coming away from disordered eating, and starting to eat more foods, again, people will experience digestive discomfort, like let's say they cut gluten out for years, or dairy, or even eggs or something, right. And when you reintroduce those foods, it's actually to be expected that you have a bit of a response, both because you're going to be a little bit anxious about it, but also, because your body hasn't had practice digesting these foods for however long that you are restricting them and eliminating them. And we have to remember in those moments, too, that it's actually very normal for your body to go through this kind of readjustment period, you know, producing these enzymes, again, like digesting and absorbing these nutrients that it hasn't seen in a long time and like to not use that as evidence that you need the diet or that you need the protocol. Right? It's going again, back to that body trust, that theme of Body Trust. Well, let me just see, like, let me give my body time. Let's see how it does. And, and take it from there. I mean, I think about like, another example is like i A few years ago, my husband and I were in Hawaii, and we had this amazing sushi, like really great sushi, but I got food poisoning from it. And like painfully ill, you know, the kind where you're just up all night. And it's the worst. And it has honestly been until recently that I have not been able to eat sushi. Because every time if that's the power of the mind, right? Like, it's literally this like, visceral response, like, I will see it and I'll be like, I just know, like, my stomach, like, literally starts hurting as I see it and you get, you're gonna get flooded. It's amazing what our brain does when it remembers physical experiences like that.
Stephanie Mara 27:06
Yeah, your body remembers. So like, that's why you can't logic your way out of like, No, this is fine. This wasn't about the food. It was just a situation. It was just like, No, the body needed time to be like this food can be safe again. Yeah, sometimes that does take time. And so especially when you're healing from an eating disorder or disordered eating, and you're starting to bring food back in, you know, I appreciate you naming that, that actually, we think, Oh, okay, this is just proof that there's something still wrong with my body when you get digestive upsets when you're starting to bring more food back in. And it's like, no, that's actually a part of the healing.
Abbie Attwood 27:43
And you know, what this reminds me of is when you're doing these protocols, like something that's a certain number of days, and then they're telling you like, yeah, reintroduce things, see how you do, they're setting you up for the like, validation of their program, right? Because they're telling you not to eat it for like four weeks, and then they're like, Yeah, go ahead, try it out. And like, they're telling you that you're probably going to have a reaction, you do have the reaction. So you're like, okay, great, gotta get this food out of here, not gonna eat it ever again. And it's just this vicious cycle that keeps you relying on the protocol or the diet itself, like, again, continually disconnecting you from your body. And more than that, just creating a really really disordered relationship with food, like particularly wellness culture is what has given rise to like orthorexia lately, has just been really prominent in from an eating disorder lens. And no, it doesn't have its own diagnostic criteria right now. Like, it shows up in like the subtext of anything from like anorexia to bulimia to just subclinical disordered eating. And it's that obsession with eating healthy that a lot that wellness culture promotes this, like read every ingredient in the food that you're buying, like, don't buy anything with XYZ ingredient like, it's, it drives us obsession with food, and it's that kind of mindset that just breeds more body distrust and more disconnection.
Stephanie Mara 29:14
Yeah, yeah, you know, it makes me think of, like, if we think of like protocols we would do with a baby, we would want to introduce as many foods as possible when they're transitioning into eating food, so that they start building those digestive enzymes, so they get used to the taste and the texture and like, what's this, like eating this and swallowing this? And we kind of, you know, so many things about like, all the trust that we try to cultivate and a baby of like, hey, yeah, you can listen to your hunger and you can stop when you're fall. And we lose that as adults, of just like, oh, like we need an abundant array of food all the time, so that our body continues to know how to digest that food, how to integrate that food, how to feel safe around those foods. but if we keep taking all these things out, like Yeah, then suddenly when we add them back in, it's not just about the food itself. It's our, our kind of our nervous systems response to that food because we would now been taught to think of that food is threatening and dangerous. So then we move into a fight or flight response when we eat it. And of course, digestion. What does it do in a fight or flight response? It shuts down. And so yeah, that's like a foreign invader. Yeah. So it just perpetuates the cycle of like, oh, no, I can't eat this, when really, it wasn't about the food to begin with. It was how we were approaching the food or what we've been taught about the food.
Abbie Attwood 30:36
I know. And it's such a hard, I empathize. And I have so much compassion for anyone going through this because it was so hard for me to like, because I was so convinced for so long that there was this like, physical reason for a lot of my digestive issues. And it felt like invalidating to think that there wasn't like it felt like I was somebody, like, I felt like I was crazy. Like, I don't like to use that term. But that's literally how it felt. I felt like if it wasn't something that was functionally wrong with my digestive system, then that meant it was like psychosomatic, and I was crazy. And I was creating it in my mind. And that I it took a lot of work for me to understand that's not the case at all, it was not creating this, it was very real. But that I had to stop blaming the food. And I had to work on what was beneath that, like, what was going on beneath that, but I just want to empathize with anyone listening who's thinking like, but this is so real for me, and I'm really struggling with these foods. And we're not saying that that's not real. It's just that like, it takes bravery and strength and courage to decide to look at it differently. And and take a new approach and stop thinking that your body needs to be fixed. And and think about it more that you're you need to befriend your body, like you need to reconnect with your body and trust it more. And I gosh, I think that that's some of the hardest work in recovering from diet, culture. disordered eating is like really trying to bridge that gap again, because it's so scary.
Stephanie Mara 32:09
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, to add on to that, I really like to normalize of wherever you're at is also just maybe where you need to be that even as we're talking about, you know, you're at is also just maybe where you need to be that even as we're talking about, you know, adding foods back in, if that is literally sending your body into a panic attack, that that is real, that is your body telling you that sounds like too much. And absolutely honor and respect that because if you push yourself too far too fast, all those coping mechanisms with food are just going to come back to help us feel safe again. So this has to be really slow, really gradual. And some days even, you get to decide for yourself, I just want to be in my safe behaviors today, I just want to be in this, this is what feels safe to eat, this is what feels safe around me in my food. And you just get to be there. Because the having that sense of safety has to be there on any healing journey. Like if we don't feel safe, it is going to be really hard to heal.
Abbie Attwood 33:12
Yeah, you're getting at just the idea of like, of how to approach exposure therapy in this process. Like, we can't just throw ourselves in the deep end all the time, there's a time and a place for that. And it's really valuable. And it can really help you like take a step away from the disorder behaviors, but like, we have to look at the whole picture. You know, it's a look at your whole mental health. And if there are days when your nervous system and your body and everything feels hard, we don't need to layer something else. On top of that we don't need to create more hardship for ourselves. Right, like so I love that you said that. I think there's a time and a place for exposing ourselves to hard things. And there's a time and a place for for eating foods that we you know, that create anxiety like, but we have to have some safety around that, you know, one of the tactics I always tell people to use is like if you're introducing a food that has been restricted for a long time to pair it with things that feel safe, like to not just sit down and eat that specific food, but to like, include it in a meal that already feels safe for you so that you're just creating like this buffer. And yeah, I can see in your face. You're nodding along like I'm sure that you've you've given that advice, too. But it helps because it's this balance, right? It's this constant balance.
Stephanie Mara 34:31
Yeah, it makes me think of the idea of like habit stacking that it's...
Abbie Attwood 34:35
Yes, totally, totally makes me think of that. Yeah.
Stephanie Mara 34:37
Yeah. Like it feels a lot easier to integrate a new habit with habits you already have. And I've already integrated and so yeah, if you have a sense of safety with a particular meal, instead of just saying okay, I'm gonna entire meal of foods that completely take me outside my comfort zone. It's like we just choose like one small thing. So that in a general sense, the meal feels safe and then you're just experimenting and really tiny, small, safe way up with something now.
Abbie Attwood 35:04
Yeah, yeah. And then likewise with like, if it's if there's been some food group in particular, you've been avoiding that actually, one of the safe ways to reintegrate that is to like is to titrate it up over time. Like, you don't have to sit down. And like, let's say you haven't been eating gluten, you don't have to sit down and eat a loaf of bread. Like, it's like, why don't you have like one piece of bread with this other the rest of your meal that you're having, rather than having to base it around that food? Like you can give your body these like little kind of stepping stones? Right. And it also emotionally helps a lot.
Stephanie Mara 35:39
Yeah, yeah. So something that you said like way at the beginning that I kind of want to bring back around? Yeah, was like we're entering into the New Year soon. And I think with everything we're talking about, I wanted to kind of bring in the how would you suggest or guide or are helping people kind of steer clear of Diet and Wellness culture, because not only is it go on a diet, and it's going to start ramping up, like, as soon as kind of, you know, this holiday week is over, we're going to start seeing those diet ads. But then wellness culture also ramps up as well. Get back to the gym, you know, do this cleanse, do this detox, it comes from like both sides. And so like, I'm wondering, where would you even suggest individuals begin of how to kind of enter into the New Year feeling really connected to themselves.
Abbie Attwood 36:28
The first thing that comes to mind, and this is, I think getting in touch with your values can help a lot. And so maybe that is just the practice of identifying like five values that are really prominent for you. You know, for me, I think about compassion and humor, and courage, right. And adventurer like authenticity, like, these are some of my, definitely my values. And I think that when you can kind of value check yourself against the desire to like, maybe try a reset, or just because it's so seductive this time of year, everyone around you is most likely talking about it. And it can feel really innocent, you know, well, maybe I'll just yeah, maybe I'll just do this little 30 day thing, you know, but it's, it's going back to your values can help ground you and remind you that that is not what your life is about. Right? Like, where has that I think it's like playing out the tape too, in those moments of like, not only does that asking yourself, Does this align with my values, but asking yourself like, what is my lived experience been with this before? Because there's a reason why you're here listening to this right now, you're probably recognizing this in your life, you've recognized the harms it's caused you. And so it's remembering what has happened in the past, when you've done this, like, where Has this gotten? Has it gotten you closer to trusting your body? Has it gotten you closer to freedom with food? Has it delivered on all of its promises of like self worth, and confidence and happiness? And the perfect relationship? And the perfect job and the perfect life? And like no, you know, curing all of your medical conditions like has it ever delivered on these promises? Has it ever made us feel more loving towards our body? I would really venture to guess that that is 100%. No. For all of those things, Diet and Wellness culture, they actively detract from our relationship with ourselves. So I think thinking about what you value, asking yourself if these wellness protocols and diets aligned with those things, and then asking yourself, where where they've gotten you before. And then more than that, like really thinking about how you can create a safe space for yourself, like social media, right? Like making sure you're not following anyone that's triggering you on social media, like some really basic things like that can help. I always suggest clean out your closet, get rid of any like aspirational clothes, right? You know, these, these things that just make your space feel safe. And I know this one's hard, but I really do recommend it's funny, I met with one of my like, monthly group sessions yesterday, and we were talking people were saying, you know how it's really triggering to hear people talking about their diets and everything we're going to do in January. I'm like, I know, this feels hard. But this time of year, if you're hearing that messaging, and it's sparking something in you, I mean, spending less time with those people right now. Like if, if there are people that don't align with what you want for yourself right now, like it's okay to take a little bit of time away from those relationships. And make sure that you're surrounding yourself with people that contribute to like, your mental health and who share your values. And I know that can feel really hard with friendships, but I had to do that a lot in my own recovery for sure. You know?
Stephanie Mara 39:55
Yeah, love all of those pieces. You know, I think what you're referencing to do is just getting clear on your boundaries. And it's not necessarily that you have to totally cut those people out if you're like, oh, yeah, at this point at this point in time, like, I need to set a boundary and hang out with this person last and we can maybe, you know, hanging out again in February. They're like past their 30 day thing. Yeah, exactly. You know, it's putting just your self care first. And I think that ties in beautifully with this idea of values. That if it's like, okay, if my value, let's say one of your values ends up being like self respect, for example. And it's like, okay, would I be able to respect myself if I continued to engage in these dialogues that actually, like break my sense of boundary and my body? Okay, well, no, like, that wouldn't lead to me respecting myself, Okay, well, I can set a boundary here. Or if you're kind of feeling like you are at the beginning stages of trying to explore your relationship with food, you know, even asking the question like, okay, let's say one of your other values is like family, and you're like, Okay, if I engage in this eating behavior, will I be able to put my family first, because I know, like, when I was stuck in my behaviors, it wasn't just that moment where I was like, in a hard, difficult food eating behavior, it was, okay, now I'm in a judgment and shame cycle. Now I need to feel like I make up for it. Now. It's like 24 hours experience, if also, like, I was stuck in binge eating for a really long time, where it was, like, I was very uncomfortable in my system, because I ate so much. So it's like, oh, wow, my family really wouldn't be able to come first, if I engaged in this behavior. So sometimes you get to do those values is to like, check in with yourself of, oh, if I engage in this, it's gonna take me away from what feels really important in my life.
Abbie Attwood 41:52
I mean, that this, I don't think that I've ever worked with someone where I haven't done this work, the values work, because it's so powerful. And I can totally understand if somebody hears this and is like, how US work like, so like, woowoo, or whatever. But it's not I mean, it is the core of what makes us feel fulfilled and happy in our lives is like, Are We Living in alignment with what really matters to us. And one of the things that diet culture does, is it constantly tries to convince us that its values are our own, like that our values are that we, like, we care what we look like, or the food determines, like who we are, those are not, those are not my values, I definitely was convinced that they were my eating disorder. Those are my eating disorder values, right? But did I want to get to the end of my life? And did I want the only thing that anyone had to say about me? Like, at the end of my life? I mean, this sounds kind of morbid, but like, if someone were to speak at my funeral, would they just say, oh, yeah, she ate a lot of kale, you know? Right? Like, no, because at the end of my life, like, what I want is to know that, like you said, I family, is I spent time with my family, I spent time with my friends, I was kind, I was fun. I was, you know, driven to do the things that mattered. I left a mark in the world in some small way that I could I was social justice oriented. I thought, that's what I want. And so we have to ask ourselves, like, Is this getting us closer or further away from the life that we want for ourselves? And it's like, no matter where you land, even if a lot of people will say, Well, what if health is one of my values? Okay? We have to remind ourselves that restrictive eating is not healthy. It is not healthy, physically, it is not healthy mentally, or emotionally, like, we've been duped into thinking that the definition of health is weight loss, and, like green juice, and you know, only protein and veggies that's not health at all, right? And health is not living a life where you're disconnected from your family health is not living a life where you're not respectful to yourself, or you're unkind to your body. It's, it's not any of those things. So I think really digging into like, what matters to and trying to right size that with with wellness culture in January.
Stephanie Mara 44:17
Yeah, you actually said something really cool of like, that was my eating disorders, like values. And I think it actually would be like kind of a cool exercise, that if you're someone who really knows that voice, where it's like, they tell you what to do, what to eat, what not to eat, like, write down their values, and then kind of write down like, maybe your your adult self values or the values you want to have for yourself in 2023 or something like that. And was it when you hear kind of that inner voice values? It's like, we should do that detox, you should go do that. You'd be like, Oh, that's my disordered eating voices' values. I'm not sure I want to live 2023 with their values anymore, just to like kind of have that, that check in of like, knowing which values is showing up in this moment.
Abbie Attwood 45:05
100%, I actually have done that exercise. It's so funny, I've done that with clients before. And then the funny thing is that like, it's, well, it's alarming to do that, right? Because it can feel really like you can have a lot of grief that comes up when you realize you've made a lot of choices in your life, according to the eating disorder values, right. But it's also just really eye opening. And, you know, it helps you move closer to yourself to what matters, but it also helps you uncover where, you know, it might be leading you astray. And to ask yourself, you know, there are moments when, say you're having like a really hard body image day, where you might be pulled towards those January resets or those restrictions, and you can think about your values, but but even more, so I think it's also about asking yourself, what's truly going on? Like, what are you really feeling what usually we're feeling unsafe in some way, right? Restriction provides this like numbing agent, it provides a distraction, it gives us like a purpose. Like, oh, I'm feeling uncomfortable in my body today. Therefore, I'm going to go do this thing. And that's going to solve everything. But the question is, why do you not feel good in your body today? What's actually underneath that? And how can you meet that need in a way that's rooted in self compassion rather than restriction? Like so maybe you're just feeling sad, maybe you're feeling lonely? Maybe whatever it is, what is one thing you could do that is going to actually address that feeling? Rather than going towards something that diet culture says?
Stephanie Mara 46:45
Yeah, yeah. But something that I explore with a lot that I of those that I work with, is starting to see your food and body behaviors as interpretive instead of literal, so when there's a part of you that says, oh, we should go eat that or not eat that. It's like, Huh, okay. So if I know that I often have that food or body impulse, when I feel unsafe, it's not really about the impulse anymore. It's about oh, I'm having that impulse. So that probably means I'm feeling unsafe. So that then you kind of detach from the story that showing up and start addressing the lack of safety. That's present.
Abbie Attwood 47:22
Yes, yes. Yeah, that's exactly it. I mean, it's hard, and it's uncomfortable. But oh, my gosh, like, what's the alternative? The alternative is just constantly ignoring our feelings, and going back to the diet cycle over and over again. And, you know, spending all of our time and energy and money on things that we don't actually value. It's certainly hard work. It's certainly brave work. And it's, it's why going back to what you said earlier, that I love, like, I really want to reiterate what you said is like, knowing when sometimes it's not the day to push yourself, like, because it is hard, and it's exhausting. And healing is not like a do it as fast as you can thing. Yeah. And there's no perfect way or right way to heal. And everybody has their own journey with this. So it's giving yourself a lot of grace and knowing like, there are days where you just you just need to be. And you don't need to try to force anything. But it's it's certainly hard. And so I think it is a really hard time of year, but knowing that it's going to pass like, it really is. January will come and go. And it is just remembering like maybe if you're a resolutions person, I'm not. But if you are, if you are and I totally love, I love, like totally love that people set resolutions for me. I'm just like, I never, like I can't set goals for myself, I don't listen to myself in that way. Like, I am like a rebel in that way. But maybe it's thinking about what's a resolution you can make that is, I don't know, I mean, really in alignment with who you are, like, what's something that would really improve your life, you know, versus going to some of these classic January resolutions is another good place to start.
Stephanie Mara 49:03
You actually said something that I say a lot as well of asking the question is this bringing me closer to myself or further away? Yeah, for instance, is bringing me closer to the life that I want to have are further away. And I think even just kind of creating that intention, entering into the new year of who is going on a new diet going to push me further away from myself or bring me in a closer connection with myself is doing this cleanse kind of bring me closer into relationship with myself or further away. Kind of like what you were referencing before. Just getting really curious about where this impulse is coming from.
Abbie Attwood 49:39
Yeah, if you're like me, and you're a rebel, I mean, remember that it's January, it's just another day like it's so it's right it's just like such an artificial idea that like we need to do anything differently just because it's a different design. Right remember that please. And and remember that feel being pulled to do to do any kind of reset in the new year, like, yes, it's January. And that's arbitrary. But it's also, it's also a product of the messaging that we get from diet culture during the holidays, it's almost like we're like encouraged to binge throughout the holidays, only to like, repent for it in January. So I think it's also remembering, like zooming out and seeing that like, that is just perpetuating the diet cycle. It's like perpetuating the binge restrict mentality. If you restrict in January, you're just setting yourself back up for another one of those cycles, like, having a peaceful relationship with food means that you don't exit the holiday season, feeling immense guilt and shame. Because you've, you've developed a sense of like autonomy with food, and you've, you know that that food is always available to you, like, you don't just let yourself eat candy, or pie or whatever it is, in December, like, you know that that's available to you all year round. And so no longer does January mean anything in that way anymore. But if you buy into that, again, if you let diet culture tell you that this is a time of year where you repent and atone, quote, unquote, for your quote unquote, sins during the holiday season. It's just feeding that loop. Right?
Stephanie Mara 51:17
Yeah, yeah. So beautifully said, I feel like we could just talk about this forever.
Abbie Attwood 51:21
I know. I'm sorry. I'm such a chatter.
Stephanie Mara 51:23
Oh, I'm the same way. I'm just like...
Abbie Attwood 51:25
It's why we have podcasts.
Stephanie Mara 51:26
Yeah it's why we have podcasts. So you know, we could dive into these things for as long as we want to. But I do want to leave time to make sure that we include, you know, how can listeners keep in touch with you? And where can they find you and your work and you know, everything that you're doing in the world?
Abbie Attwood 51:43
Aw, you're so it was so nice to see you nice to like, see your face and get to actually spend time with us. So if you want to find me, you can find me on Instagram. That's where I mostly hang out. And I'm just at at Aviat wood wellness. And then my website is just Abby, I would wellness.com. So you can get information on my groups and one on one waitlist there. And then I also have a podcast. It's called Full Plate podcast. So you can find that on Instagram. And then you can also find it on you know, wherever you're listening. You're listening to this one right now. So yeah, those are the things.
Stephanie Mara 52:14
Awesome. Well, I will put all those links in the show notes. And just, it was such a joy having you here today. I feel like we align in just so many different ways.
Abbie Attwood 52:24
I know I feel like kindred spirits.
Stephanie Mara 52:26
Yeah, yeah, I feel the same way. So I'm just like so glad that our paths crossed. And just thank you for being here today and just having this conversation.
Abbie Attwood 52:35
Thank you. Thank you for having Stephanie really means a lot. It was really fun.
Stephanie Mara 52:39
Yeah, well to everyone listening. If you have any questions, I will put our contact information in the show notes. Reach out anytime and I hope you all have a smooth transition into 2023. Bye!
Keep in touch with Abbie here:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/abbieattwoodwellness/
Website: https://www.abbieattwoodwellness.com/
Contact: abbie@abbieattwoodwellness.com