Transform Your Binge Eating Through Uncovering The ADHD-Dopamine Connection
Welcome to the Satiated Podcast where we explore physical and emotional hunger, satiation, and healing your relationship with your food and body. I'm your host, Stephanie Mara Fox, your Somatic Nutritional Counselor.
I've had people close to me this past year finally receive their ADHD diagnosis as an adult after struggling since they were kids with ADHD behaviors. I witnessed how much compassion started to come in and a profound deep understanding of their patterns. This has sparked a passion within me to gain further education on supporting those navigating ADHD in their relationship with food. What I've seen now with those close to me and those I work with who are also ebbing and flowing with how their brains work is that because of the hyperfocus that can happen for some with ADHD they may forget to eat entirely. This can lead to inconsistent eating which can increase the likelihood of binge or emotional eating. With others, because of the lack of dopamine that a person experiences, they may binge eat to get that hit of dopamine they're looking for and need to feel good. This is just another example of why your food behaviors have nothing to do with willpower or weakness or any other story that your mind has created to try to explain away why your food coping mechanisms continue. When, what, why, and how you eat is your body's way of trying to create homeostasis. And, there are other ways to support your body in feeling balanced and stabilized besides food.
I was so excited when Rebecca King said she could come on the podcast and chat about this overlap between ADHD and binge eating some more. Rebecca is a registered dietitian, Certified Intuitive Eating Counselor and the founder of The ADHD Nutritionist. She's an ADHDer who not only knows all about nutrition, but also knows how to make changes that work with your ADHD brain, not against it. We chat about the connection between ADHD and binge eating, understanding the role of dopamine in binge eating, diverse hunger cues that don't show up as stomach gurgles, how masking can increase binge eating behaviors, and the importance of self-care and aftercare around binges. Even if you're not navigating aspects of ADHD this episode is filled with fantastic suggestions of things anyone can play with in their relationship with food.
Now, welcome Rebecca! I am thrilled that you are here and just to talk about all things, ADHD and binge eating and relationship with food because I find there's just more awareness coming out around how connected binge eating is, with just how your brain works. And I'd love to first dive into how you found this work and got into the work that you're doing in the world.
Rebecca King 03:16
Yeah, I was exploring where I wanted to be in like the intuitive eating space. And I was thinking about my own relationship with food and working with a really good friend who was struggling with like, not eating enough on her ADHD meds, and then binging at night. I was like, this is what I was going through in grad school. And then I just started thinking about it more and I was like, I think this might be a thing. I think there's something here. And so I was thankful or grateful enough that someone would let me do a poll in like a Facebook support group for women with ADHD. And almost every single woman in that group that did the survey said that they struggled with binge eating. And that was like the top response out of all the things was binge eating. And I was like, okay, so there is something here. And before I like kind of gotten into this, I did a lot of stuff with ADHD at the time was just for kids like back in 2020. And that was all about kids and ADHD and food. And that usually would just revolve around how to feed them, make sure they're getting enough nutrition with being on stimulants and that kind of stuff or like a lot of like eat this not that stuff like very diety, wellnessy, not like true all the time stuff. I'm going to start talking about this now. And I started doing some more research on it. I was like, okay, there really is a connection between these two things and I'm not just imagining it. And there's no resources like how are adults supposed to feed themselves with ADHD? And the more I started talking about it the more people were like this is something I struggle with, and oh my gosh, this makes so much sense. And so I was like we're just gonna start going this direction with it because I could see there's really a big need for it. And I have the experience of struggling with those things as someone who does have ADHD so I guess I can be a really great person to help people.
Stephanie Mara 05:04
Yeah, I really hear just was such a mirror of like, here's what I'm working with in my relationship with food in my unique body, and then discovering others were on the same path just as confused as like, yeah, I do have ADHD and I do also struggle with binge eating. And I'm curious if you could share more about what these overlaps are. For those that maybe are unaware. I'm so excited that more of this information is getting out there but I feel like it's just touching the surface, like we're just cultivating this, like more massive societal awareness that these two things are connected.
Rebecca King 05:44
I would say the hallmarks of ADHD, which are inattention, hyperactivity, and impulsivity, like, all of those things can kind of create a perfect recipe almost to struggle with binge eating, because you might forget to eat and go long periods of time without eating and then all sudden, you're ravenous and you need to eat now and then binge eat. Hyperactivity and impulsivity together. But like, you know, being impulsive, oh, I see something and I want it and I just eat it before I even realize that I'm not really hungry right now. And then being able to regulate. A lot of a way of thinking about ADHD is that it's rooted in struggling with regulation in several areas. And so not just our attention, but our interoception. We have differences in how we perceive when we're hungry and when we're full. And so they are ravenous. And now I need to eat now. So that is one thing that I see. And then emotional dysregulation is huge. It's not a part of the DSM for ADHD yet, or in the DSM five for that but I think it will be added, because yeah, like most, most ADHD experts are like emotional dysregulation is a fairly big part of this. And then like the mood, for stimulation. So there's lots of things that kind of factor all into it. And it's just make it like this perfect storm almost too.
Stephanie Mara 07:03
Yeah, we were talking a little bit before I pressed the record button of just how much compassion is being brought in for those that have struggled both with maybe they didn't even know that they were navigating ADHD and then all they knew is that they were struggling in food through binge eating. And there's so much compassion that I find that is now coming into this space that this was never your fault. This wasn't a willpower, or a weakness issue that like diet culture maybe made someone believe was their problem. And that this was, hey, this is the way that my brain works and actually, it found a way, an outlet to function through this binge eating.
Rebecca King 07:49
Yeah, and I work with a lot of women who get diagnosed later in life. So a lot of them will be kind of describe themselves as like grazers or like, I'm always just, they may not be like binge binge eating, or sometimes they do. But there'll be someone who's just kind of constantly eating. And now I don't really know what hunger feels like, because I don't let myself get hungry. But I'm always eating. Like I have some people who like I either it sounds like I'm either forgetting to eat and then eating everything or I'm always eating all the time. And so it's just, their brain often was self medicating with food because it's a source of stimulation. And they're like, oh, this makes so much more sense. Like you said, it brings so much self compassion, because now they understand why. And they're like, I could never, I never had a language for why I was eating when I wasn't hungry. And then learning more about ADHD and eating for stimulation, oh, now, I've connected these two things and I have language that like my boredom eating isn't just because I lack willpower. And I don't know what else to do with my time. It's that my brain is under stimulated and food is this for most people easy, accessible and tasty way to get your brain dopamine.
Stephanie Mara 08:57
Yeah. And just in regards to the connection with dopamine. I've talked a little bit about it on social media and here on the podcast in response to like trauma that like when we've experienced past trauma, it can affect our dopamine levels, but just this connection of when someone is struggling or navigating, not necessarily struggling like you, this was just the way you were born with this beautiful neurodivergent brain. And when it comes to the dopamine piece, I'm curious if you could share more about how that is exactly connected to the binge eating.
Rebecca King 09:31
Yeah, so basically, like, in a very oversimplified way, our brains are lower in dopamine. And so we're constantly seeking out ways to get our dopamine levels back to normal so we have kind of like the fuel or it helps with our executive function so we can plan and organize and actually of like the fuel or it helps with our executive function so we can plan and organize and actually follow through with tasks. But it can be hard to regulate our eating. It's hard to regulate again when our dopamine levels are low, so it's hard to be able to regulate how much we're eating when our dopamine levels are low. And then it's just like, oh, this is really good and then like that impulsivity, I just want more of this. And it's, you know, a quick little bit of dopamine. So it's like, okay, I want more. Now I want more. That's really good. Like, or I really like this sensation of like, this crunchy food in my mouth and that's what's stimulating me. It's not just like, oh, it's sugar. It's like, no, it's this crunchy food, or like, the really yummy texture of like, Sour Patch Kids or something like that. I just want to experience that, that sensation in the mouth. And I just want more and more of it, even though I might feel really uncomfortably full my mouth still wants that and I feel like I can't say no and I can't stop.
Stephanie Mara 10:43
Yeah, so the binge eating is ultimately doing and I really like to point out here a lot that binge eating was never the problem, it was the answer to something else going on inside of the body. And like, thank goodness, we have food. And thank goodness, we had maybe these binge eating behaviors that got us through a period of our life. And at some point, it's like, you know what, okay, that's not giving me what I'm looking for anymore. You know, now the binge eating feels like it's maybe taking me away from my life instead of helping me to continue to live my life. So I'm wondering what else you've maybe explored with people around, like increasing their dopamine levels in a non food way.
Rebecca King 11:23
There's another, there's an ADHD person Eric Tivers, he came up with something called dopa menu, which is like this really cool visual for eating like, not for eating, but just a way to visualize all of your tools for stimulation. Because sometimes with ADHD, like in the moment, you just can't remember, like, sometimes I can't recall the things I actually enjoy doing, which is really frustrating sometimes. And you're like, I'm bored, and I need something to do and my brain is like, you don't like anything, there's nothing entertaining in your life. Like, you're just gonna either doom scroll, or you're gonna eat, you know, and it's like, no, no, no brain, we can find something. And so that was one tool, I find really helpful to kind of categorize and visualize, it's you don't have to pull from your brain because trying to think of something's gonna be really hard. But your pantry is right there, and that's easy. So I often tell friends to put it on your pantry. So that way you can see it and be reminded of those things. And be like is eating what I really want to do in this moment. If so, go for it, enjoy it, do it without guilt, but if that's not what's gonna serve you in this moment, let's look at these other things, you know, if it's doing something, so kind of the way it categorizes things is that your Starters are little things you can do for like, you need to get started on a task, you need something to kind of get you going, or you need like a little reward to get on to the next task, that would be a Starter. So like, maybe your cup of coffee could be a good example. Or like listening to one song and then starting something could be that. Your Sides could be fidgets. Like if you could see me on camera right now I have fidgets in my hand, I always do when I'm sitting down. But yeah, having something to do alongside another task. And it usually engages another sense. So like when we're watching TV, food is often paired with that, because it's engaging those other senses. And we can kind of still watch the show, and eat and be engaged with both of those things. So I usually try and find other things for my clients to occupy their hands if they're genuinely not hungry. Then your Mains are things that might require a little bit more energy and time. So like for me, going for a walk with my dog would be something that would be amazing. And that takes some time and energy, but it's a really fulfilling. And then Desserts would be kind of things that maybe are like sources of stimulation, but maybe aren't very fulfilling. So like doom scrolling, actual deserts, crunchy foods, things that like just kind of make you want to go back a little bit for more in a way. I know for me when I finish doom scrolling, sometimes I was like, why didn't I even do this? I didn't get anything out of this. Maybe I got a little bit but not all, like you don't want to rely on those sources of dopamine. And then your Specials would be things that require more time, money and effort than like a Main. So for me going to a concert would be like, if I could go to a concert every day, my brain would be so happy. But I cannot do that because I don't have money like that. So that would be like a Special. Or like traveling something like that. And then your Late Night Snacks is kind of a category you can customize to whatever you really want it to be. I think about it as a way to like unwind from too much stimulation. So like at the end of the day, or like if I go spend, you know, go run errands and I'm out and around people and there's a lot of stimulation like what can I do to kind of help regulate that. So I find that's really helpful, but like movements really big, music, anything that like you find rewarding or enjoy those sorts of stimulation and sometimes that just trying to figure out what those things are and then keeping notes things if there's certain things you'd like to do. I keep a lot of things visible so I remember they exist. Like I keep a yoga mat in my living room because I will forget that I enjoy yoga and that it exists. But if I see my yoga mat and like, I'm bored and I could do a yoga video right now, I'll go do that. So little things that can kind of help cue you to other sources of stimulation can be very helpful.
Stephanie Mara 15:16
Yeah, I love all of that. And think of just as we want a wide variety of foods to choose from a wide variety of like a dopamine plate menu to choose from, and that food is allowed to be one of them. But I find the same thing that you were talking about, is that we need to create lists. Because especially when you're like, in the moment, I see it from this, like nervous system perspective of when you're already maybe like outside your window of tolerance, maybe more in your sympathetic nervous system, like your prefrontal cortex to even think of what your options are totally shut down. Like you're not even, you're not even gonna remember what your choices are. So I love that you're bringing in of like, yeah, you have to write it down, you have to like put it on the pantry, you have to put it in places, so that it's just as easy as choosing food, like your yoga mat is already there, all you have to do is step on it.
Rebecca King 16:17
Yeah, or like like, sometimes even set an alarm, like when they first start using it to look at it. So they get in the habit of like, oh, that exists and I should check it out and see what's on there. And then I go do any of those. I've also referred to as like dopamine snacks, of like, making time in your day to go do things that like, bring you joy, because some of my clients struggle with like revenge by time procrastination where they put all their work in to their kids, or their jobs, or all of the above and like don't have any time, like even stopping for lunch feels like I'm being selfish because I'm stopping to eat food. And it's like, no, it's not selfish at all. But building in to your day, little moments that don't need to be like, you know, doesn't need to be taking an hour to go do something you enjoy but just even little small things that can bring you some joy or some dopamine so that way you don't end up staying up until whatever hours way past your bedtime and you're like why did I just stay up to like reclaim my time, and now I'm sleep deprived, it's gonna be even harder to get through my next day. I'm like, yeah, how can I bake in little things like sometimes for me, I'm like, you know what after lunch, I'm going to color for five minutes, because I like that, and it's fun. And then I'm gonna go back to work. And that's just a little thing. Or I'm gonna take a moment to play with my dogs. Because, you know, I can spend a few minutes just playing with them and get back to my work. And it'll be okay. But I need to take those breaks, because just sitting and working, just drains me.
Stephanie Mara 17:46
Yeah, I really appreciate all of those suggestions. Especially just planning ahead of time of when you know, the moments when maybe the binge eating and emotional eating usually happens. Like I heard a little bit of what you were just referencing is you have to start thinking ahead of like, okay, I know this is when my brain kind of goes towards that option. So can I start to even like 30 minutes ahead of time, be like, okay, I'm getting closer to that time. So how can I prepare myself, what other dopamine snacks can I put into place there that are coming in from a non food way, I love that. And also, I really appreciate you pointing out of like afterwards, because I find that sometimes you start eating because need to eat lunch, for example. And then it's hard to stop. Because you're getting that dopamine, that serotonin, it's feeling good, and you don't want that to stop. And it's really sad for that experience to be over. And so even just your suggestion of like, okay, what else are you going to put into place to get that dopamine hit, so that you're getting it from food because you have to eat lunch. That's important. And then you can color afterwards or you can go pet an animal that lives in your home or whatever it might be that resonates with whoever's listening.
Rebecca King 19:11
Yeah, again it doesn't have to be big thing sometimes it's like when I'm working I just want a nice bubbly limoncello lacroix. Sometimes I just have that next to me and that's my little thing. I get my little sip of my little fizzy yummyness and I keep working because it's like I'm not hungry. You're genuinely not hungry, like having those other little things like I'm not going to use lacroix as an appetite suppressant or something like that. It's not doing any of that for me. But, it will help me when I just know that like, sometimes it feels like your hands or your mouth, just want something to do. And that can be for me, that's how I know I'm like, I just want stimulation like I'm not hungry or if I just ate, I know I'm not hungry because I just had a whole meal or just had my snack. I'm good. My brain is looking for stimulation. So what can I do to satisfy that?
Stephanie Mara 20:00
Yeah, I'm curious, because I know that for a lot of listeners here, they may struggle with identifying that difference. I'm wondering how you discovered of knowing when it's the urge for stimulation and when it actually is a need for more physical satiation from food.
Rebecca King 20:19
There's a few things I do like one, when was the last time I ate. If it's been three plus hours, I probably need some food. If it hasn't been three plus hours, then kind of do a body scan, am I feeling anything else in my body like, or another way that I know I'm hungry when I'm medicated is I get angry at the speed of my internet, which has not changed. And that's how I know I'm hungry. And it's just been an experiment, I would say of like, okay, I'm angry at the speed of my internet. It's been about three hours since I've eaten, I'll go eat something. Oh, imagine that. That's a hunger cue that I have learned over time. For some of my clients it is making again, a list or a visual of like different hunger cues. You can search hunger cues and find cute little visuals and putting that on your fridge or having it as like a screensaver on your phone to refer to of like, what are signs of hunger? Some of my clients forget because a growling stomach is just one hunger cue that we have. And so many of my clients don't get that hunger cue, so they get a headache, or their mood changes or a dip in their energy or they'll be on their medication and struggling with being able to concentrate or pay attention. And like hmmm you probably need to eat. So kind of learning those. Those sorts of things. If I'm like, I feel, if I asked myself how I'm feeling and bored is the answer, chances are the reason I want to eat is because I'm under stimulated and not that like I'm physically hungry. So...
Stephanie Mara 21:43
Yeah, hunger cues are so much more diverse. And I have found that it's a conversation I'm getting into more and more with those that I work with around it's not just going to be stomach gurgles and learning what hunger specifically feels like in your unique bodies like somatically of that yeah, maybe headaches, it may be that you can't think clearly it may be that you start getting angry at the Internet. And it's like, I'm being kind of short tempered, am I hungry right now?
Rebecca King 22:14
Yeah. Everything like sensory wise is my like, environment, things that normally wouldn't bother me like sometimes it's my dogs barking and I'm like, why are you barking? That doesn't normally bother you. You know, let's check in. For some of us, their ears ring when they're hungry and not having a good hunger cue. Oh, when I mentioned that hunger cue, and they're like that? What? And then I'm like this week if you think that's a hunger to try eating this week, and and they'll eat when their ears ring and they're like, no way that was a huinger cue this whole entire time? Or I had a client who like gotta, she would get headaches in the afternoon and thought she just needed more iced coffee. And so she'd always go get her iced coffee. And I kind of looked at her today and I was like, can we try maybe a snack instead of the iced coffee? And sure enough, it was like, oh, it wasn't caffeiene that I was needing. It was a snack. And you know, I wish we didn't just think about stomach hunger as a hunger cue because it is even if you don't have ADHD, like, it's not just stomach cues. And I would say for people who take medication, so medicated or unmedicated, you're hunger cues can kind of change a little bit like, they're gonna be much harder to notice when you're medicated, obviously, because that can be a side effect is lack of appetite. But just trying to notice or learn like okay, paying attention to how it might change a little bit so you can have a little bit more awareness for what hunger looks like medicated versus when you, if you, take, have days when you don't take a medication or in the evening when your medication wears off. It's gonna look a little bit different.
Stephanie Mara 23:47
Yeah, sometimes I find what I'm exploring when those I work with are medicated is that sometimes you just have to create a rhythm and a consistency to your eating where regardless of if you feel those hunger cues or not, the body typically needs food about every fourish hours no matter what.
Rebecca King 24:08
Yeah, I usually will like explain when we talk about like the different types of hunger in intuitive eating and we're talking about practical hunger I'm like if you have unreliable hunger cues and your meds suppress your appetite like practical hunger is that sweet spot for you of like okay, just I'm still have to eat lunch even if I'm not hungry, I need to eat something in the middle of the day to keep me going. And so for a lot of my clients this is kind of understanding that like, even when I'm not hungry now like it is especially if you're in that like not eating all day and binge eating at night kind of cycle of being like, okay, I'm still going to eat or I'm gonna have small snacks. So we might explore different eating patterns that aren't like the 3 meals or like a mid, mid morning, mid afternoon snack. We might play around with different eating patterns to figure out like how you can eat regularly, still get enough food and keep what I call like the hunger monster away in the evening when your meds wear off and you're like. Oh, I haven't eaten all day work, you're not medicated, you get home and you start to relax, your nervous system calms down a little bit and then it's like, your hunger just like revs up. Because it's like, oh, we feel safe and comfortable now? Now we're going to show you that we're really, really, really hungry. And then you end up having to catch up with all of that eating.
Stephanie Mara 25:20
Yeah, and that's such a great point is that sometimes the urge to binge isn't about an emotional reason, which we explore a lot here on the podcast of all the emotional reasons. But sometimes it's literally a physical reason that your body is asking for a lot more food that it did not get throughout the day.
Rebecca King 25:40
Yeah, or if you've been dieting for a long time and you stopped dieting like your body has been, you know, under fueled for so long but it's kind of like a catch up for, you know, however long you were dieting for.
Stephanie Mara 25:51
And so I'm hearing some great cues that someone can maybe pickup that are maybe non conventional cues of physical hunger. I'm wondering if there is a cue that you have learned when you need more stimulation, but you're not actually hungry, like you know that it's not food that you need, that your body's needing that dopamine, that stimulation, and that's something else but it's thinking of maybe food is one way it's telling you, I need more stimulation, because that's what's been habituated.
Rebecca King 26:20
I think I think restlessness kind of a little bit. Like, I just need to do something and I'm like, alright, like, and I think this is why for some people, they don't have a schedule, and they're like, okay, I need to do something, I'll just have a little snack, because it's my day off. I'll have a little snack, and then it just opens the floodgate to a binge because they have nothing else planned for the day. I'm just gonna have this relaxing day. I definitely experienced this myself when I was struggling with binge eating and I had days off or didn't have anything to do the weekend would be like, okay, I'm just gonna do whatever I want today. And then all I would do is binge eat. What is wrong? Why did I do that? Oh, I had almost too much free time. And I didn't, my brain didn't know what else to do so it just did this one thing. Yeah, I feel like restless. That's something for me that's kind of like, okay, what can we do that would be fulfilling, like feel fulfilling, and trying to meet myself at my energy level, because there's sometimes where I feel restless, like, mentally I guess feel restless. But physically, I have no energy to go like do something that like going for a walk or like going and hanging out with friends is like that's really too much right now. So again, like those like coloring, there's things I have like make friendship bracelets, little things that are like to me don't take up too much brain capacity, but still, like are fulfilling. And so we're doing like little tasks sometimes around the house that night, I have my zoomie time and I just like have restless energy. So I will put things back in their place at the end of the day, like, it ends up getting my day set up the next day better. But I'm used to not do that. And you know, and then I would have all this restless energy you need to do something to do with and then food would be the outlet instead of me being like, okay, let's just kind of put things back in their home. And I'll usually listen to music while I'm doing it. And it gets me off the phone, which is nice. So I'll just kind of like put things away until I like finally kind of run out of energy. And I'm like, okay, it's time for bed now. So I don't have that totally answered.
Stephanie Mara 28:17
Oh, yeah, absolutely answers my question. It makes me think of in somatic work, just noticing the impulse, like, what's the impulse here? And so often, we haven't been taught or guided back to our body. Like when we're told to just get over something or, you know, entertain yourself when you're little and you're like, how do I do that? You know, that, like when we're not really guided into relationship with like, oh, well, you know, is there an upward energy? Is there a downward energy? Like what's happening inside your body? Is there an impulse to want to do something or move in some particular way that all of it kind of gets stuck inside of our system. And so when you were like, I had just noticing, you know, if there's restlessness of okay, yeah, my body's telling me it wants to move through restlessness. But culturally, we're like, oh, you're restless, you just have to calm down. Like, you just have to, like, be still like, just like, get over this restlessness. It's like, well, what if restlessness was information? And what if you leaned into it and move with it?
Rebecca King 29:22
Yeah, yeah. Instead of just trying to push it down and kind of, it's almost just doing masking kind of in a way like, oh, you're restless, well just try and sit still more, because that's what's socially acceptable versus like, here, let me put some fidgets in your hands so you can sit still or, hey, let's go take a walk for a second and then you can come sit back down or something. My partner will throw me a fidget if we're watching TV and I just keep getting up and I'm gonna go do this really quick. Why? We're trying, I'm trying to watch this show with you. I'm like, I'm still listening. And he's like, you're not. I'm like I am but it's okay. So then he'll just like throw me like a I have these little those squishy ball things.. He'll throw me one and I'll be like, okay, cool, thanks. And I'll sit down and then we can watch the show together. And that's great. Because I'm not constantly interrupting him getting up and moving around. So I think finding some of those things too of like, yeah, it's masking. And it's more exhausting to do that than to actually, like, meet that need or that message that you're putting out.
Stephanie Mara 29:46
And I know that something that you put out recently was on just, for those, maybe you can explain a little bit more of what masking is. But you know, when you are masking all day long, and you're exhausted, by the end of the day, that binge eating is sometimes the only place that you can feel free to like, take off the mask and be yourself.
Rebecca King 30:43
Yeah, so masking is this basically, if you don't know what it is, it's basically doing things to hide your ADHD traits in a way, if you think about it that way, or like kind of fit into social norms. And so that it takes a lot of work in addition to doing everything else everyone else is doing around you. You're constantly trying to make sure like, are my mannerisms correct? Am I making eye contact, you know? Am I sitting in a way that's socially acceptable, all these things are really exhausting, because they're also very unnatural to us. And so when you get home, it's just yeah, I want to take my mask off and be, feel like I'm being myself and just, I can relax and get some enjoyment. There's no one here to comment or, you know, deal with the comments from your co-workers or your classmates or whoever are making. And then again, you're exhausted. So like, who's going to help get your energy levels up, is gonna help you regulate again, and I see it a lot for some of my clients, where I can tell like they're really in jobs that really forced them to mask a lot. And that's the only outlet that they have, unless they find, fortunate to find another like a find somewhere else they can work pretty much and like sometimes you can do all the work and I'm like, if you don't find a way to be able to unmask more often, like all the other tools and strategies aren't gonna help because that at the end of the day is the root of what's getting you there, especially if they're not restricting and they've made peace with food, and they're in a really neutral place with food, but there's, you know, their job just sucks everything out of them, and they can't manage it. It's like, okay, well, we can maybe find, maybe we can, you know, I can't help you probably as a dietitian, but maybe we can, you can explore with somebody like, you know, be in a better job, or maybe a better environment for me, or can my job make accommodations for me to be more diversity affirming, so that I can unmask like I would hate to work, sometimes working with an open workspace and I'm like, I don't know how my, my ADHD brain could never work somewhere, like where you're in an open office space. That sounds really not great for my ADHD. But if I had, like, if I have my own office space, I probably be okay. Like, there might be little things or maybe you get sat somewhere in an open floorplan that's like tucked away in the corner a little bit. So you're not like ya know in the spot where everyone walks behind you and you're constantly getting distracted. So yeah, it can be really exhausting to mask all day. And just, having that self compassion piece too. It's not that I lack willpower or anything else. It's just like, almost a way to kind of reclaim my autonomy after having to not be like myself. Like in my old job, I used to say there was work Becca. And then, especially because I worked in late last night, my first job, not for me. So it was like, okay, there's work Becca. And then there is, you know, Becca when she's like, the real Becca and I put my mask on to go to work and keep everything together and the mask would come off as like Ooof. And then when I finally got laid off from that job, which is what led me to work now, it was like, I felt like I got out of a toxic relationship. And that's how I knew I was like, that was not good for me, because I just felt this weight come off of me where I was like, oh, yeah, that was not the environment for me, because I had to be someone who I wasn't. And I don't think if I would have gotten laid off, I probably would have gotten fired at some point because I wouldn't have been able to keep up with masking the way that I needed to especially at a job that just didn't align with my values.
Stephanie Mara 34:17
Yeah, thanks for explaining all of that. I find that masking also is so hard to start to identify as something that you do, because it's so celebrated, of like, oh, you're fitting in like you're doing all the things that everybody else is doing. And so, I'm wondering from your experience, like how you started to notice like when you were masking, because sometimes I find just that piece of awareness. Like obviously, there's maybe sometimes pressures where you feel like you have to mask because it doesn't feel like you're in a safe environment to really show up fully as yourself. But even just having the awareness of I'm masking right now I find gives a different experience of like, at least I know what's happening here, like, my body doesn't feel safe to show up as me. And so like, yeah, I'm changing my behavior a little bit so that it feels safe to be here, right now.
Rebecca King 35:12
Someone pointed out to me, but I definitely unconsciously mirror people. That's one way I know that I'm masking. Because as someone who I know is very neurotypical and he kept being like, stop copying me, and I was like, what are you talking about? And like, he would move and I would move and completely unconscious. Like, I had no awareness that I was doing that. So that's something I do. The way I dress sometimes is I definitely mask like, so I'm still like, I don't really even know what my style is. But I learned like I was like, okay to fit in to be a dietician, you need to dress like you basically like walked out of a J Crew catalog with you gotta look really preppy. And like I don't mind that style at all. But like, I know, deep down that that's not like, if that wasn't taught to me as like professional attire, I probably wouldn't. So that was something for me. I was like, oh, like what I wear when I'm not working versus like when I'm need to wear more business casual. Oh, that's, that is me masking, because that's not what I would like, go out and buy to go hang out with friends or do something. And that sort of kind of like, came back to me a little bit. Like masking or like, I can think of something else.
Stephanie Mara 36:21
Well, I'm wondering if there's anything you've explored with those that you've worked with, in how they can discover, like, is there something that they can like a felt sense of like, oh, I know, I'm masking right now. Because what we're talking about is that this masking is so connected to the binge eating, because the more that you mask, the more you're going to need food as an unmasking later.
Rebecca King 36:44
I think things just don't almost feel out of alignment in some kind of way. Like, whether it's not aligned with your values, or not aligned with maybe how you view your authentic self if you've explored that a little bit. Like does this really align with those things? Like does this allow me to feel like I think drained? That's another good thing. Like not a good thing but, can be a sign of like masking. Like, if I go hang out with, you know, people, there's some people I can hang out with that are also neurodivergent that, like, they don't deplete my social battery at all, if anything, they recharge it, and it's so much fun to hang out with them. And then I have other friends where I'm like, I have to know that I almost need to do aftercare when I hang out with them. Not that I don't love them, but like it's a lot more for me, because they're not neurodivergent. And it's just a different way of interacting. And I'm probably have to explain myself a lot more. And sometimes my friends don't understand. And then I'm like, I don't even know how else to explain this. And then I feel like, there's something wrong, I can't explain, you know, like, I'll tell a story that makes sense to me and to somebody who doesn't have ADHD, they're like, what did you just tell me? And I'm like, ah, you didn't get that? Like, it's so hard sometimes. Like, can you try and tell me in a different way? I'm like, It's okay, we will just move on, you're probably not gonna understand it. So I think those might be some ways.
Stephanie Mara 38:10
You know, what I hear in that and something I look out for for myself is like, after I'm around an environment or people like, where did my energy go? Is there like an increase in energy, a decrease in energy? Was there a stabilized energy? And then do I leave there feeling like open and expansive? Or do I feel like I leave there like, contracted, and tense and tight. And so it's like, all just information of oh, wow. Like, that's how my body was digesting that experience that it may need a little bit more support afterwards. I love that you just said after care. Because a lot of the times it's okay, I'm about to go into a situation, how can I prep for this and I explore this a lot with those I work with as well that, you know, it's like, okay, and what about afterwards, because we have no idea how your body is going to process that situation, how the conversations are going to go, how that's going to digest in your body, and how can we provide that you know, coming back into the parasympathetic nervous system or that safety or that relaxation or ground afterwards if it was a sensory overload experience.
Rebecca King 39:20
I think it makes a big difference especially to with like that pendulum swing of things that can happen especially with binge eating. If we get better with aftercare there isn't as much dysregulation going on. Not feeling like you need to turn to food or food is kind of oftentimes can be the aftercare for some people and, and you might get to a point where like, I don't want food be my aftercare anymore. Or maybe it is like, oh, I need to I know when I get out of the situation, I'm gonna go have something but it's gonna be like, you know, I'm gonna go intentionally go get something and sit and enjoy it and savor it and like that was my aftercare kind of thing. I know I broke up with, like, I got out of a past relationship, I went and took one of my dogs, and we went and had an ice cream date together. And I was like, I know that this is not gonna fix anything that happened, I was like, we're doing this because this is just a temporary like, little break from our feelings, it's gonna make us feel happy, seeing my dog happy and like sharing some like, non chocolate ice cream with my dog is a nice little moment. And I still remember it, you know, five, six years later, it's one of those little like, special moments I had with my dog. And it was a nice part back then because I was still kind of working my way out of binge eating then and I was like, forcing myself we're gonna go do something and like, it being an intentional experience versus I'm just gonna go to the store and grab a whole, ya know, pint of ice cream and eat the whole entire thing I was like, I'm gonna go have a nice moment, and build positive memories around this. And that feels like a way better way to enjoy ice cream as like aftercare for a break up then like crying into ice cream on my couch and just like, eating as much ice cream as I could.
Stephanie Mara 41:02
Yeah, thank you for so much for bringing that in. It's something I really like to normalize is that food always gets to be an option. Like that was sounds like such a wonderful moment to actually receive regulation and a really wonderful, like calming memory with food that sometimes that specific food of ice cream is so labeled as bad or like the wrong choice from diet culture. And so just to say, hey, I'm going to choose ice cream, I'm going to own this is what I want to choose right now and I'm going to make this the best experience that it possibly can be, is a totally different eating experience than, you know, like, we've all been there. I've certainly been there like crying into a you know, carton of ice cream. That's gonna happen sometimes, too. But you know, it's just a very different, more embodied compassionate experience with that food.
Rebecca King 41:57
Yeah. And it made, like, ice cream used to be a really big binge food for me, too. So it was like, we're gonna just have this nice moment, I remember, it was like lavender ice cream. And then I can't remember the other flavor, but they were both just delicious. Like, yeah, it was just such a nice moment. And I probably would have never been able to do that if I hadn't explored, like, moving towards intuitive eating and all of that, because I would have been like ice cream is so bad, I can't do that. I just have to be miserable and cry and be you know, sad about it and not do anything, because that would be bad to eat the food. And then I probably would have inevitably binge at some point and feel even worse. So like just being like we're gonna just do this because this was all my brain kept saying was I want ice cream. So I drove way out of the way to go get Jenny's ice cream, and I enjoyed it. And it was incredible. And it showed me that like food can still be a part of that, like, of the way that I process my emotions. And that doesn't necessarily make all of those experiences somehow quote unquote bad or like, you know, it's not having some ice cream and moving on with my day is not gonna will make or break my health. If you would have told me that before I discovered intuitive eating, I would have been like, you are absolutely bananas. That it was not a thing. Ice cream's not even allowed in the house. Why would I? I'm gonna just go get ice cream and enjoy it. You gotta be kidding me. I would never.
Stephanie Mara 43:22
Yeah, and just to kind of bring this a little full circle for a second of how we started of bringing in more of a dopamine menu. That when you also feel like you have more choice, that food isn't the only way to increase the dopamine in your body, that I find the reliance on like ice cream per se starts to decrease because your body knows it has options like it starts to experience this isn't my only available choice here.
Rebecca King 43:53
Yeah. And it's so freeing to be like, oh, I do have choices. And yeah, it's like almost saying I'm allowed to like have the ice cream. My clients are like, I don't know what this magic is you're doing to me, but somehow telling me I'm allowed to have this food means I actually don't I don't really want it anymore. And now I want all these other, like now I want to go do these other things that actually help me regulate my emotions or actually feel, work my way through my feelings better than maybe food was doing or yeah it just creates so much space to find some of those things, you know? And I think that's really cool to just be like, oh, yeah, it isn't just food or it really wasn't food that was the problem this whole entire time. Cause I know sometimes especially with binge eating, they're like, it's the food, you know, it's the food and it's like no. I never really see it ever being the food. There's always something deeper going on as to why we're turning to food and once you can kind of figure out what that is for you because it's going to be different for everyone maybe what those triggers are, you can start to find things or kind of build a toolkit for whatever that is. If it's, oh, I notice I binge when I'm lonely. Okay, well, what are things I can do when I'm feeling lonely that I'm moving on to food? Or if it's I'm needing stimulation, I'm just like, emotion dysregulated like, I sometimes don't really know how, like my emotional state. So I'm like, I could tell when I'm dysregulated though like I don't have the word for how I'm feeling. But I feel dysregulated is the closest to the vocabulary I have, unless you like, pull up a wheel of feelings. Then I can, I can find the feeling but I know when I feel off. And then I'm like, okay, what can I do to kind of help get myself back to baseline, and not turn to food to do that? When like, I know, like, that would just be a binge. And that's not what I want to do. And I can do that. And it feels freeing to know that I can turn to food if I need to. And but I know that it's not gonna lead to me binging in the way that it used to be like this.
Stephanie Mara 45:56
Yeah, I appreciate that suggestion. You know, usually I like to wrap up at the end of like, what's a baby step someone can take on this journey, and you kind of just already went there, of just making lists for yourself, especially with what we were talking about earlier is this is really, when you're in the moment, when the binge urge is already hit. You will not remember what your other options are.
Rebecca King 46:18
Yeah, it's that light switch is flipped and like that's it.
Stephanie Mara 46:23
It's so difficult to say, how do I stop this in the moment? It actually has to be how you practice the before and the after first. You know, how do I prep myself before I usually binge? And how do I show up for myself afterwards, and then something within the binge eating can sometimes start to change.
Rebecca King 46:40
Yeah that's like, there was so many, like when I was in grad school reading like, like tips and tricks on how to not binge eat and I would try all these things like in the moment and be like, I don't know how these things work. And it was like, that's exactly why because it was like, that's not, not where you need to be focusing your energy is in like, because you're not in control in those moments, but there's control around those moments that you can have, when you can find and like navigating those tough spots. The other thing I'd say is like approaching your thoughts with curiosity, and not judgment is like, huge, I'm sure you probably talk about that on here. But like, for a lot of my clients with ADHD, we have a lot of negative self talk from ourselves and from people in our lives. Like, why why are you lazy? Why are you all these things? You know, can't you clean up after yourself, whatever, we get a lot of negative messages outside and then internally as well. And when my clients are getting curious, for me, that was the game changer of instead of beating myself up for binge eating, just exploring your curiosity and being like, oh, I'm not eating enough during the day. Oh, I'm looking for stimulation, oh, I just haven't habituated myself to this food. It's so much easier to be nice to yourself and you're like, oh, this foods been restricted for five plus years for me or longer. Oh, no wonder, I feel out of control around it. I haven't had it in my house. That was a game changer to be like, okay, let me just say why, like explore the why instead of being mean to myself, because you've probably been mean to yourself when you're struggling with binge eating for a really long time. And it hasn't made any positive impact on changing the behavior versus I find curiosity is like a really great for understanding and start making lists. Once you kind of have curiosity, right, like, oh, I can make a list about this and a list about that maybe have a little notebook for just for that kind of stuff that you can like go reference so that if its own special notebook or something so it's not mixed in with all your other notes and papers or gets thrown away by somebody or yourself and you're like, oh man, I made this list and I can't find it. And I would say writing it down over your phone because I have a million notes and screenshots and things that I don't really go back to, but I'll go look through a notebook a lot more than I will look through notes.
Stephanie Mara 48:49
Yeah, what that makes me think of is the person that you imagine yourself to be when the binge eating is gone, like start treating yourself that way now. Like if you would treat yourself with more compassion and curiosity if binge eating wasn't a part of your life, how could you possibly get there if you don't start practicing it now with the binge eating present?
Rebecca King 49:16
Yeah. That is so true. You're like, like you don't need to like almost like the happiness is a journey not a destination can be like you should be practicing these things along the way versus waiting until we get to a place where you're not binge eating to start practicing because it it all just kind of works together on that on that journey that can be very messy sometimes, but I do think having some self compassion and grace makes it hopeful.
Stephanie Mara 49:48
Yeah, thanks for adding that extra piece. We do talk a lot about it here but I don't think anyone, myself included, can be told enough how much we need to question our thoughts and approach them with curiosity and get really interested in like, wow, why is that what I'm thinking right now? So I actually really love that you brought that in, because I don't feel like we can be reminded enough that our thoughts are not facts, and that they can be questioned and they can be challenged and they can be reframed. And that our thoughts are just information, not necessarily valid information, but they're information of either how our body is feeling, they're information of how we're perceiving something or underlying belief that we need to start reworking, like, if we can just see that that thought is information trying to tell us something else that isn't necessarily the like surface level words that the thought is saying, you know, then we just get to kind of view the thoughts as like, oh, how is this a doorway into myself? Well, I really appreciate you being here today and just sharing all of your wisdom. I love the work that you are doing in the world and how can others keep in touch with you?
Rebecca King 51:06
Yeah, if you would like to follow me on social media, I'm most active on Instagram so @adhd.nutritionist is the best place to find me. And if you ever have any questions and want to chat more with me, please send me a message and I'm more than happy to chat with you.
Stephanie Mara 51:24
Awesome, well, I will certainly leave the links in the show notes. And just thank you for being here and sharing this work in this crossover between ADHD and binge eating, I find that it's a really important dialogue. And so thank you for spreading this awareness.
Rebecca King 51:40
Thank you for having me and talking and having these important conversations. Yeah. Thanks Stephanie.
Stephanie Mara 51:46
Yeah, well to all that are listening, as always, reach out anytime if you have any questions and I will look forward to connecting with you all again real soon. Bye!
Keep in touch with Rebecca here:
Website: https://sites.google.com/adhdnutritionistllc.com/smallgroupcoaching/home
Discovery call: https://p.bttr.to/2FUkb1j
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/adhd.nutritionist/
Dopamine Menu Resource: https://www.additudemag.com/dopamenu-dopamine-menu-adhd-brain/